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wiring temp 50amp camper hookup |
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8236 |
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Posted: 03 Nov 2024 at 2:08pm |
What's the deal with everything requiring 2 hots, a ground and a neutral. Back in the old days 2 hots and a ground which connected to the neutral/ground in the box sufficed. I read somewhere they required the neutral and ground be isolated from each other in the box. Around here everything has neutral and ground connected to each other in the box and supposed to use the bonding screw. I know just enough to get in trouble. I'm sure there's a reason for everything but I don't understand it all. Education appreciated.
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PaulB
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Rocky Ridge Md Points: 4727 |
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ya know just enough to get in trouble: CALL AN ELECTRICIAN!!! That's why places have codes, because to many @!!&&$% rigged something that caused an issue.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
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Coke-in-MN
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41567 |
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Codes change as the ideas of safety become known .
Use to be range wire used a outside jacket for the neutral kind of wrapped around hot leads , and covered with insulated covering . As this depended on this to also serve as neutral when one lead was tapped for 110 a load could change on one leg . So a parallel load of 220 on the 2 legs , so adding a neutral wire , but now needing a separate ground or the actual cabinet or fixture could carry voltage . So the 4th wire grounds the full system . One can see other code changes Ground Fault breakers or circuit protection , Arc Fault for bedrooms and other areas where someone might run wires or extensions under rugs or other covered areas . Yes neutral and ground are bonded to panel - and a wire is run to a grounding source , but yet from transformer of power company a 3 wire is run to building , and from transformer only 2 wires are run a hot and neutral wire for supply . |
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8236 |
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Thanks Paul! Not what I was asking but consider the source....
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81071 |
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Steve... the deal is the RV plug is really TWO 120v plugs ... each has a HOT, neutral and ground. They SHARE the neutral and ground, with their own HOT wire.. If you hae the neutral and ground connected together, and something goes wrong, you may not have a GROUNDED system... Not that big of a deal on the welder or dryer... but COULD be a big deal on an RV that travels around..
I just added an RV plug on the sons garage for him...Outside wall... What you are SUPPOSE to do is have 4 wires on the plug, run out the back and 3 go into your Breaker box... the GROUND goes down below the plug and connects to a COPPER GROUND ROD... so it is seperate from the Neutral... You "COULD" run into the brreaker box and ground to the Neutral / Ground strap, but "SOME" of the new campers look for a .5 volt DIFFERENTIAL between the Ground and Neutral.. and if you connect the TOGETHER the camper will not see the differential and will NOT power up...
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8236 |
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Thanks Steve and Coke. Went and looked at camper and it has a 50A 3 prong male twist lock receptical in the wall. Owners in process of moving and cord is somewhere.... so I don't know if other end is the 4 prong plug that plugs into "camper" receptical or what. Still gatherinr info.
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Gary
Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Peterborough,On Points: 5373 |
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Sounds like your 'Male Twist Lock" is like the style used for Marine. If you look close at the Male Plug, you will see that it has a small metal knose that makes contact inside the female receptacle to a metal surface and becomes the 4th wire, the ground. G |
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8236 |
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Gary I believe you are correct. I noticed a metal strip on one side in the "hole" and online they refer to "marine" type plugs for RV extensions.
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JW in MO
Orange Level Joined: 16 Feb 2010 Location: South KC Area Points: 2618 |
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Many years ago as a beginner electrician I had to run power to a new typesetting machine for a small newspaper. I combined the neutral and ground and when we turned it on, the screen displayed gibberish and wouldn't stop scrolling. One call to the manufacture and I then pulled another wire and all was good. With today's computerized electronics requiring clean power, it's a necessity to separate the ground and neutral.
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Maximum use of available resources!
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Gary
Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Peterborough,On Points: 5373 |
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What you mentioned "Back in the old days 2 hots and a ground which connected to the neutral/ground in the box sufficed " held true back then AND STILL HOLDS TRUE TODAY. That's because, as any electrician would know, the wiring connection you describe is a 220 volt connection to a single device, like an Air Compressor or an Arc Welder. The 50 amp RV connection is two separate 50 amp circuits wrapped together in a flexible weather proof covering, and supplying power to a split / separate 50 amp Panel in the RV. Each circuit in the RV has its own Breaker. Gary |
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81071 |
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just like the PLUGS in your house... 60 years ago they were TWO PRONG.. No GROUND... still works, but no safety... Having an EXTRA wire for the GROUND, not connected to the WHITE wire is a good idea.... but will it work without ??? Probably... until something happens !!
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Les Kerf
Orange Level Joined: 08 May 2020 Location: Idaho Points: 777 |
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Under normal conditions, the Neutral is always intended to to be a current carrying conductor. The Ground is never intended to carry current unless something goes wrong, i.e. it is a safety device.
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jaybmiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 22448 |
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gee, decades ago my 'remote energy control systems' USED the 'ground ( Mother earth) TO carry current. Doing this allowed us to communicate about 15 MILES on one single copper wire AND have a the ability to know WHERE that wire was cut or shorted. It was also hacker proof, unlike every other means today. Could also tell when the Don river was low. If the FEDS hadn't put the screws to us, I would have been a multimillionaire. Sigh, I miss the old days.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8236 |
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Best I can tell the ground is to be connected to a ground rod driven next to outlet. The neutral goes back to the neutral in the feed box. Feed the 50A service with a 60A breaker? Near 100ft using 6-6-8 copper.
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81071 |
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YEP... that would be PERFECT !!
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Coke-in-MN
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41567 |
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Seems if you have a second panel like in your shop and garage it use to be you could run 3 wires , then install a ground rod at the 2nd panel .
Now code requires a 4th wire and only ONE GROUND Source at main panel - idea is system could depend on secondary grounding device at sub panel instead of ground on main . Reminds me of neighbor who obtained power company under ground aluminum wire single conductor with aluminum wrapped braided shield over insulation - ran those 2 wires to his shop - said one was the ground - other was neutral - called it 4 wire |
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8236 |
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After reading Steve's report again about his install it made sense and did as he with the ground rod buy the pedestal. 2 hots and a neutral in the breaker box and it works like a champ. Thanks all.
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Jordan(OH)
Orange Level Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Celina, OH Points: 1547 |
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Ground needs to go to the panel. Ground rod is for lightning, not to trip a ground fault.
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Gary
Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Peterborough,On Points: 5373 |
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When I built my SHOP back in 2015 with a 100 amp Sub Panel, I installed a Ground Rod like Steve stated. When the licensed electrician came to connect up the Sub Panel and saw the Ground Rod, it wasn't Perfect, it was WRONG. As I recall he removed the Ground Tab inside the Panel and connected the Ground Wire from the Feed to the Panel Ground Bar. Same as what Coke has stated. G |
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jaybmiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 22448 |
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so went for a walk... 'everyone' says ONE ground, at the main panel but.... up here, north of the 49th... the transformer on the pole's neutral IS grounded. my main panel is 100+feet away from that 1st ground. kinda wondering what the diff is when a subpanel(say in garage) is grounded ?
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81071 |
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use to ground everything at each panel and run 3 wires between them... "NEW CODE" is to only ground the MAIN and the subpanels are not suppose to be grounded..... but 90% of everything in the Country is PRIOR to that.( like COKE said above)... There is a REASON to not ground the sub... but many still do it... I ALWAYS ground everything... and i ALWAYS strap the Neutral to the Ground lug terminals in the breaker boxes.
Edited by steve(ill) - 09 Nov 2024 at 9:30am |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Dakota Dave
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: ND Points: 3938 |
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If its temparary they already make a 50 amp RV plug that plugs into two standard 110 outlets. The two outlets need to be on seperat circuts snd you wiil pop a breaker if you yry running both AC units a d the micro wave together but you can run one AC and everything else.
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81071 |
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just for some odd information... Today i took a 100 ft extension cord and plugged into the garage and walked out into the middle of the driveway about 50 ft from the house and power pole... It had rained a little earlier so the ground was damp.. The driveway is gravel CA6.... I took my volt meter and stuck one probe 3/4 inch into the gravel driveway and put the other lead into the HOT side of the extension cord... I measured 124 v from HOT to the wet ground... not even a ground ROD, just the probe of my meter.
NORMAL flow of current out of your electrical box is thru the WHITE NEUTRAL wire ... but if something goes wrong with that, then the BARE wire or GROUND wire will take the flow ... Can be a real wire or can be ground rod in the earth as my test above...
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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jaybmiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 22448 |
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not that 'odd' really.. I used that for decades on my remote energy control systems, could get reliable communications for 15 miles. The line receiver could even tell if the river was high or low, spring or late summer. check the pole/transformer wiring, odds are the neutral there is grounded. "The primary and secondary neutral is jumpered, and the grounding
conductor is run down the pole to a rod or butt coil at the base of the
pole. Most utilities will do this at each and every span."
Edited by jaybmiller - 10 Nov 2024 at 6:22am |
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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Gary
Orange Level Access Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Peterborough,On Points: 5373 |
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Here is a Link to the 'Facts' - straight from the Horses Mouth. NFPA 70 (National Fire Protection Association Code 70) which evolves to be the NEC (National Electrical Code) The National Electrical Code (NEC) has several requirements for grounding in a 100 amp "Sub Panel", including: Separate neutral and equipment grounding termination bars. Sub-panels must have separate bars to isolate the grounded conductors' neutrals from the equipment grounding conductors and metal cabinet. No Main Bonding Jumper. The green Main Bonding Jumper (MBJ) should not be installed in a sub-panel. No bonding of grounded conductor and equipment grounding conductors Bonding these conductors together in a sub-panel is a common mistake and can create a significant hazard. This is known as a bootleg ground and is prohibited by the NEC. Link to total NEC 250.32(B)(1) https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+NEC+relating+to+Grounding+in+a+100+amp+sub+panel&sca_esv=7e818a552f6284eb&sxsrf=ADLYWIL3smwuRj6MZn0znyCcJJ3-brZJTQ%3A1731434890023&ei=ipkzZ-KIAZLSp84PiZzL2QE&ved=0ahUKEwji9cjMsdeJAxUS6ckDHQnOMhsQ4dUDCA8&oq=what+is+NEC+relating+to+Grounding+in+a+100+amp+sub+panel&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiOHdoYXQgaXMgTkVDIHJlbGF0aW5nIHRvIEdyb3VuZGluZyBpbiBhIDEwMCBhbXAgc3ViIHBhbmVsMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKsCMgUQIRirAkiunQVQ_hRYiLUEcAF4AZABAJgBvAGgAY9FqgEENS42MrgBDMgBAPgBAZgCNKAC7znCAgoQABiwAxjWBBhHwgIIECEYoAEYwwTCAgYQABgHGB7CAgYQABgIGB7CAgsQABiABBiGAxiKBcICCBAAGIAEGKIEwgIEECMYJ8ICChAjGIAEGCcYigXCAgsQABiABBiRAhiKBcICDhAAGIAEGLEDGIMBGIoFwgIFEAAYgATCAgsQABiABBixAxiDAcICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIOEAAYgAQYkQIYsQMYigXCAgoQABiABBgUGIcCwgIKEAAYgAQYsQMYCsICBxAAGIAEGArCAgYQABgWGB7CAggQABgWGAoYHsICCBAAGBYYHhgPwgIIEAAYogQYiQXCAgcQIRigARgKmAMAiAYBkAYIkgcEMi41MKAH2_gC&sclient=gws-wiz-serp Edited by Gary - 3 hours 43 minutes ago at 12:51pm |
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 81071 |
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most Govt Agencies and "GROUPS" exist to make Continous Random Rules to Justify their EXISTANCE....
Check ANY POWER PLANT and 90% of BUSINESS in the US and they BOND at EVERY PANEL.... Random rules for residential keeps these groups in business making $$$ for THEMSELVES. --------------- The National Electrical Code (NEC) has several requirements for grounding in a 100 amp sub panel, including: ---------- So does this apply to a 50- 60 amp Panel ? How about a 90 amp panel... is there any DIFFERENCE ?? ..... Many SMALLER subpanels have a COMMON neutral / ground.. Edited by steve(ill) - 25 minutes ago at 4:09pm |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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