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bobkyllo 
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Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: minnesota
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 Topic: What's the difference? Tech question
Posted: 02 Jul 2024 at 11:45pm |
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Dad just put on a new roof on his house. He was talked into putting steel on. Man does it look nice also. Any way I told dad his phone would probably not work due to the steel. Well I was right
I told him he would need a repeater. He starts looking and he finds a booster. Of course he looks to me for an answer.
So I look to you guys what is the difference?
Edited by bobkyllo - 03 Jul 2024 at 3:23am
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Ted J
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Location: La Crosse, WI
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Posted: 03 Jul 2024 at 1:35am |
Here's a good example for you Bob
and
I really like the 'howtogeek' for answers. It's in simple terms (usually) and easy to follow.
If he is using the signal from the WI-FI for the phone, I'd think either one would be good. If he is looking for signal from a close by tower, I don't think anything will help. I've got the same problem and I've tried about everything.
IF he finds something that works, TELL ME! I'll try it too. Good luck!
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"Allis-Express"
19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17
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Ted J
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Posted: 03 Jul 2024 at 1:36am |
Ah,,,,,,,,,,,one more!
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"Allis-Express"
19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17
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bobkyllo
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Posted: 03 Jul 2024 at 3:22am |
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I'm thinking we are in two different levels of thinking here. Maybe not.
I need to increase my cell phone signal in the house. Not only to get better calling and texting service but also use the internet that comes with your phone.
It's no different then the guys who build a pole shed then realize that they have no phone signal when they are inside.
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WF owner
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Location: Bombay NY
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Posted: 03 Jul 2024 at 5:09am |
Definitely not an expert on this but, since we have had RV's for over 40 years, I have seen some guys use an external antenna on their rigs.
Since you imply that the steel roof has caused the problem, I'm thinking that, rather than boosting the signal, you need a way to get the existing signal inside the house. I think an external antenna is more what you need. Here is one from Amazon, that I know nothing about. I usually rely on purchaser reviews to decide if it's what I want.
Edited by WF owner - 03 Jul 2024 at 5:17am
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 03 Jul 2024 at 9:08am |
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FIRST.... set your internet box in front of a big WINDOW on the house and see if that helps.. Window should not stop the signal... If still a problem, then go with the guys above.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 03 Jul 2024 at 9:29am |
I've had a steel roof since 2014, no problem. What kind of 'phone'. I have a Panasonic set of 3+base, from 2008 or 09....base in front office, kitchen diagonally opposite ,works fine. If I cared, I'd move the base unit to the center of the house, then handhelds would work on the deck but yeesh, if I'm on the deck I don't WANT to take ANY calls ! As for 'repeaters', those are usually for 'WiFI' or 'modems', so you have to know what the 'phone' is.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
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WF owner
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Posted: 03 Jul 2024 at 12:46pm |
 jaybmiller wrote:
I've had a steel roof since 2014, no problem. What kind of 'phone'. I have a Panasonic set of 3+base, from 2008 or 09....base in front office, kitchen diagonally opposite ,works fine. If I cared, I'd move the base unit to the center of the house, then handhelds would work on the deck but yeesh, if I'm on the deck I don't WANT to take ANY calls ! As for 'repeaters', those are usually for 'WiFI' or 'modems', so you have to know what the 'phone' is.
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I'm the same here Jay; metal roof and good signal. But if his signal was marginal before, the steel roof certainly could be the difference in call quality.
When we are at the RV park that we have stayed at the last couple winters in Florida. cell service inside our fifth wheel is not very good. If I go outside, it's pretty good.
I've been thinking of an outside antenna for the fifth wheel. I would like to talk to someone that actually has one.
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DMiller
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Posted: 03 Jul 2024 at 3:58pm |
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Built our Home Intentionally with Steel Roof, NOY ONCE EVER a Problem with ATT Phone Signals or TV for Wife.
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ac fleet
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Posted: 04 Jul 2024 at 8:18am |
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Got steel roof AND sides here ---- never had a problem ever!
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http://machinebuildersnetwork.com/
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Alberta Phil
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Posted: 04 Jul 2024 at 9:03am |
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Got a steel roof on my quanset shop and have limited phone and can get only one AM radio station. An outside aerial would probably help.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 04 Jul 2024 at 11:06am |
A steel roof, steel walls, or any flat metallic surface, is an effective reflector of RF energy. It is essentially a 'faraday cage' of infinitely small holes.
To understand what's happening, one must be able to envision radio energy as if it were light... because for all practical purposes, it works the same way- what you see as light is occuring at a frequency range of around 4.3 Terahertz. wi-fi router connection is operating in two a frequency ranges- one around 5Ghz the other around 2.5Ghz...
Cellphones use several bands, and depending on your phone, your service provider, and your local infrastructure, it could be any one, or combination of 700-900mhz, 2-10ghz, or 24-53Ghz. The lower ranges work best at longer distances because the higher (particularly above 10ghz) experience high path-loss (travelling through air), so they're best for close-in.
The big problem is, it doesn't take much of a flat surface to reflect energy at very high frequencies away.
Steel roofs, doors, aluminum siding, metal bug screens, vehicles and machines, electronic video billboards, aircraft passing by... they're all reflective surfaces.
Reflectors are not opinionated... they are oriented. That means, they can reflect away, or towards something, and with respect to radio energy, angle of incidence is the same as angle of reflection- if waves hit at 20 degrees, they deflect away at 20 degrees. If you take two flat surfaces and place them in a 'wedge', and then place an antenna in the right spot in that wedge, you'll get some pretty intense directionality and signal strength. If you point the wedge away, you'll get isolation.
People very often jump to gadgets called 'repeaters' and 'boosters' To solve their radio problems, and about half the time, the only problem they really solve, is the bottom-line of the retailer from whom they bought the mystery box.
Real radio guys will start by looking for the tower that you're connecting to. In professional service, what we do is look up the telephone device's performance information (in my stuff, each unit has a dedicated IP address that I can telnet to) then get it's RSSI (signal strength) and the identity of the tower to which it's currently connected. Then I look up that tower on either the provider's website map, or on the FCC database, and determine it's azimuth and elevation from my unit's location. Many times, it will be on the opposite side of a building, and out several miles through trees or whatever... and I'll reposition my antenna to increase the unit's RSSI.
Last year, I had a site where, with steel roof, steel frame, and windows with a fine mesh solar shield, was effectively a faraday cage. On one side of the building was a small window that was NOT given solar mesh, but it was looking the absolute opposite direction of my cell service tower. After drawing a quick sketch of it, and walking around the property a bit, I found a flat surface on a fuel canopy that happened to be at about the right angle for a bounce, so I placed my directional antenna in the window pointing that way, and rotated it's axis (polarization) a bit, and found the signal.
On another circumstance, I had a buddy who wanted better cell and FM radio coverage in his airplane hangar... which was totally tin exterior. He'd tried a variety of electronic gadgets to resolve this, and the result was basically zero. What we did, was install a passive solution- an 'rf short' using what is essentially two antennas, one outside, connected to one inside, that are cut to a quarter wavelength of the desired frequency... this allowed radio frequency energy to 'leak' through from the outside of the faraday cage, to the inside.
Now, I wouldn't advise punching a hole through your brand new steel roof, but what you CAN do, is cut a piece of stiff wire (insulated solid copper, or a coathanger, or whatever), and bending it, temporarily putting half of it outside a window, with the other half inside, and see what that does for your signal strength... and realize that WHILE the length of the wire determines it's frequency range, it may not be very efficient at an incorrect length for the band, it will still function.
So go bend a coathanger, stick it halfway out a window, FACING the tower you're trying to hit, and see if that helps.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 04 Jul 2024 at 11:10am |
Alberta Phil wrote:
Got a steel roof on my quanset shop and have limited phone and can get only one AM radio station. An outside aerial would probably help.
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Yes, Phil- it certainly will. Unfortunately, there aren't many modern AM radios that do external antennas. If you happen to have an old broadcast/shortwave set (like the Hammarlund HQ140X sitting by my desk here) or something made for listening to the BBC on HF bands), you'll be challenged. Of course, if you have a spare junk computer around that'll run some free software, you could use an RTL-SDR dongle in a USB port... get the version that has integral upconverter to cover the extreme low end of the HF band (300khz-30mhz), and you'll have a perfect reciever for much more than just one AM station... run a small piece of coaxial cable out the side of the quonset, to a Balun, then string one wire up high (through a tree, or off a pole) about 120ft, and you'll be able to hear any AM broadcast on this side of the planet...
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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WF owner
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Posted: 04 Jul 2024 at 7:20pm |
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Thanks Dave! Your explanation makes sense and you explained it very well!
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BuckSkin
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Location: Poor Farm
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Posted: 05 Jul 2024 at 4:53am |
bobkyllo wrote:
Dad just put on a new roof on his house. He was talked into putting steel on. Man does it look nice also. Any way I told dad his phone would probably not work due to the steel. Well I was right
I told him he would need a repeater. He starts looking and he finds a booster. Of course he looks to me for an answer.
So I look to you guys what is the difference? |
I live in a metal-roofed metal-sided house and have for nigh 30-years.
What it takes is an antenna that lives outside with a box somewhere on the wall inside that sends the signal to the phones.
The best I ever had and still have is not so convenient; Wilson brand; it has a corded antenna that resides on a bracket on the outside wall and consists of a "cradle" that you must place the phone in = speaker phone and you can't roam around the house while talking on the phone.
We have others; but, the Wilson outperforms them all by a lot -- it just is not as convenient.
There is a solution to the Wilson inconvenience; we also have an expensive set of Panasonic cordless land-line phones --- the Panasonic is capable of linking to the cell phone(s) --- if a cell phone is cradled in the Wilson, the Panasonic will pick it up - as in - the cell phone rings through the Panasonic and you answer and talk through the Panasonic.
I will say this about all the other outside antenna/inside wall box units we have had --- stupid cell phone companies are forever changing the LGB-whatever and the antenna units quickly become obsolete and incompatible and will not work when the companies move up to the next level of technology.
So far, the Wilson has worked regardless; but, there will come a day, I am sure, when it will no longer be compatible.
The Wilson works so well that a phone can have no bars at all; place it in the Wilson and it will immediately jump to a full five bars.
Most times, a phone in the Wilson has a much better signal than the same phone does outside in proximity to the Wilson antenna, or anywhere else outside for that matter.
Okay, a word about the metal roof:
I would never consider ever putting shingles on a roof --- never ever period.
People with shingle roofs spend every extra penny maintaining and replacing shingles.
Let someone move out of a shingle-roofed house for a couple years and watch that house rot down and the roof collapse --- quicker than you would think.
I travel the rural countryside, taking thousands of photos of old houses and barns and such --- when I look at my photos, one fact jumps out at me --- if a house has the roof caved in, you can bet in every case it is a shingle roof --- an old hundred-year-old house with old-timey corrugated metal roofing and lead-headed nails, rusty as an old grubbing hoe, with all the window glass knocked out by hateful idiot kids with rocks, will be standing straight and square as the day it was built; and, all it needs to move in and set up housekeeping is to sweep the floor and move in.
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BuckSkin
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Posted: 05 Jul 2024 at 5:16am |
This is getting away from the initial poster's question, but it has been mentioned.
When we first got our set of Panasonic cordless phones, they worked wonderfully inside the house and almost okay out on the porch with the door open.
Step off the porch and lose the signal.
I found a signal booster gizmo on Amazon.
I put this signal booster thing inside a plastic quart-sized pickle-dog jar to protect it from varmints and the elements --- in Kentucky, anything outside and many things inside will soon get completely covered with dirt-dauber nests.
The only part of the equation not inside the jar is the 110v cord that passes through a sealed hole.
This jar hangs from the rafter in an open-ended shed about fifty feet from the back door.
Ever since adding that booster, I can walk to the farthest corner of this seven acres and talk and hear as good as I can in the house.
The only time it ever failed, I was outside and noticed I couldn't use the phone; I assumed the booster thing had burnt out and quit working.
I went into the shed to see what was happening and there was a cow snake skin, longer than I am tall, wrapped among the wires in and out of the outlet and wrapped around the cord to the booster and the booster cord unplugged.
I plugged the booster back in and it immediately went to working again.
Like it's climate counterpart, Viet Nam, Kentucky grows some huge snakes.
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