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The Forum | Parts and Services | Unofficial Allis Store | Tractor Shows | Serial Numbers | History |
WD45 Pistons |
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BennyLumpkin ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Location: Centre Hall, PA Points: 2657 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 7:37pm |
I'll have to snap a picture tomorrow but I was thinking today about the engine in the latest WD45 I dragged home....the head is off and I looked at the pistons when I unloaded it and noticed they werent Power Crater Pistons, but something way more dished....was this possibly a Distillate engine? Something else? Anyone have pics of what Im talking about or is this engine as much of a mess as the rest of the tractor?
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254 1945 WF 1945 WC135755 1951 WD68085 1953 WD45-150217 1957 WD45D-230744D B110 |
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CTuckerNWIL ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: NW Illinois Points: 22823 |
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Benny, there were some 45's with the low compression all fuel set-up. Take a look at the engine serial number. I think it would might end in K for all fuel, I'm not sure about that.
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http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
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BennyLumpkin ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Location: Centre Hall, PA Points: 2657 |
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() The last pic is of the cylinders that came with the loader thats on the WD45.....I didnt have a way of measuring tonight but its probably 3/8's to 1/2 inch of dish in those pistons..... |
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254 1945 WF 1945 WC135755 1951 WD68085 1953 WD45-150217 1957 WD45D-230744D B110 |
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21036 |
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Those appear to be D17 pistons....they are 4 inch bore correct??
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BennyLumpkin ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Location: Centre Hall, PA Points: 2657 |
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Like I said I havent measured them...Im really not sure but I'll try to go in the shed and check when I let the dogs out again or tomorrow sometime....does a D17 have that much dish in them?
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254 1945 WF 1945 WC135755 1951 WD68085 1953 WD45-150217 1957 WD45D-230744D B110 |
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RichinWis ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Deforest Wis Points: 691 |
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Benny, those should be D17 pistons, Does the serial number end in GH? just curious. Rich
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BennyLumpkin ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Location: Centre Hall, PA Points: 2657 |
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what does it mean if it does? I'll go check.
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254 1945 WF 1945 WC135755 1951 WD68085 1953 WD45-150217 1957 WD45D-230744D B110 |
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BennyLumpkin ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Location: Centre Hall, PA Points: 2657 |
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serial on engine is 45-123786
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254 1945 WF 1945 WC135755 1951 WD68085 1953 WD45-150217 1957 WD45D-230744D B110 |
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BennyLumpkin ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Location: Centre Hall, PA Points: 2657 |
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Any other ideas on what it is with having the serial number now?
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254 1945 WF 1945 WC135755 1951 WD68085 1953 WD45-150217 1957 WD45D-230744D B110 |
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21036 |
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Factory "Power-Crater" pistons in any D17-170-175 look like the picture you've posted. Factory WD-45 "Power-Crater" pistons are a smooth dish (soup bowl) design. All have 4 inch bore, not 4 1/8" bore.
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BennyLumpkin ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Location: Centre Hall, PA Points: 2657 |
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Now Im confused a bit....how did a D17-170-175 have more HP with that much of a dished piston? Did they have more stroke?
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254 1945 WF 1945 WC135755 1951 WD68085 1953 WD45-150217 1957 WD45D-230744D B110 |
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21036 |
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D17 is 7.2 to 1 compresiion...170 is 8.0 to 1....175 is 8.25 to 1....each time they raised the compression, they located the piston pin a little lower to make the piston come up higher in the bore.
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Steve M C/IL ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Location: shelbyville IL Points: 691 |
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Keep in mind that pistons in these engines don't come to the top of the bore in the sleeve so there is room to "raise" them as the DR says.
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Lonn ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Назарово,Russia Points: 29792 |
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Yep, and the 45 dish starts from near the edge where the 17 dish starts further in so I would bet the displacement is less in the dish of the 17 piston. No matter cause the piston pin is definetly set different from the 45 to the 17 like the others have said.
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-- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... -
Wink I am a Russian Bot |
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LouSWPA ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Clinton, Pa Points: 24492 |
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What's it take to convince a set of 175 piston/sleeves to live inside a WD-45 block?
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I am still confident of this;
I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
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wi50 ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 24 Sep 2010 Location: weegieland Points: 1010 |
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all it takes is the time to put them in
I have a set of identical looking pistons, I'll measure them up tomorrow and see what compression ratio they figure out to be and post some dimensions and volume. I didn't know what they were out of either. Edited by wi50 - 01 Jan 2011 at 11:13pm |
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Allis Fields ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 17 Sep 2009 Location: Reedsburg,Wisc. Points: 332 |
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Allis orange blooded by family. Allis Diehard by choice
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BennyLumpkin ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Location: Centre Hall, PA Points: 2657 |
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So what you're saying is even though they have a deeper dish, they raise higher in the sleeve raising the compression ratio, right? Now is there an easy way to tell if its D17, 170, or 175? The crank isnt in the engine so I can drop a slug out of it pretty easily.
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254 1945 WF 1945 WC135755 1951 WD68085 1953 WD45-150217 1957 WD45D-230744D B110 |
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BennyLumpkin ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Location: Centre Hall, PA Points: 2657 |
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Oh, and before I forget to ask...someone asked for the serial number and I posted it....thats still just a WD45 block by the numbers isnt it?
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254 1945 WF 1945 WC135755 1951 WD68085 1953 WD45-150217 1957 WD45D-230744D B110 |
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21036 |
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I've got some measurements I took many years ago with the head off of an engine. Model 170 piston lip (8.0 to 1) is about .265" to .270" from the top of the block when at TDC. Model 175 (8.25 to 1) is about .230" to .235" from the block top deck. Both measurements are taken at the piston pin centerline and with piston at TDC. D-17 pistons would have to be .400" or so??? ....I never took that measurement.
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ALinIL ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Location: Frankfort, IL Points: 316 |
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Group - I believe these are 4 1/8 M&W pistons. They should be cast stamped SP48 on the underside near the wrist pin. - AL
Edited by ALinIL - 02 Jan 2011 at 9:37am |
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DrAllis ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Points: 21036 |
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I'm sorry, these are not M&W pistons.....look below for a post entitled "more piston I.D." and you'll see what an M&W SP-48 looks like.
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Brian G. NY ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: 12194 Points: 2244 |
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ALinIL ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Location: Frankfort, IL Points: 316 |
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Sorry; DR, you are correct. I had misplaced a piston in the wrong box. I have both SP-48 and 17 pistons
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BennyLumpkin ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Location: Centre Hall, PA Points: 2657 |
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Ok so I went out and flipped this thing over and found a part number on the back of the piston and a marking that looks kinda like an A and E ran together....the part number is 229717
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254 1945 WF 1945 WC135755 1951 WD68085 1953 WD45-150217 1957 WD45D-230744D B110 |
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BennyLumpkin ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 22 Mar 2010 Location: Centre Hall, PA Points: 2657 |
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Next question....I figured out they ARE a D17 Piston by going through Google and finding an old post from here where someone referenced that number.....what I want to know now is can I move run a longer rod(anyone know of one) to stroke this engine? Im just throwing ideas around....I have a WC this thing is going in and I want to be competitive but dont have lots of cash to throw at it.....
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Central PA Allis Express
1934 WC254 1945 WF 1945 WC135755 1951 WD68085 1953 WD45-150217 1957 WD45D-230744D B110 |
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wi50 ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 24 Sep 2010 Location: weegieland Points: 1010 |
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A farmall H rod has a 2.25 crankpin it is 8" long center to center.
A Massey Harris 33 rod has a 2.25 crankpin and is 8.312 long.
A Perkins rod from a 3-152 engine is 9" center to center and a 2.25 crankpin diameter.
Another good cantidate is a Cockshutt, Waukeshaw rod. I can't rember dimensions though, 2" or 2.125 crankpin sticks in my mind and a 8 or 8.5 length, but the rods are not real common.
David Brown also, again I can't rember but I measured up a bunch of rods one day at the salvage yard and filed it away as a good cantidate in my memory.
None of these rods are set up to hold common .990, or smaller wrist pins, all need to be bushed or plugged and offset bushed
Your block is 12.565, your crank has an offset of 2.25" and your Allis rods are 7.5". Now you can run some numbers.
I you wanted to offset grind a crank, the H rod will likely work with an allis piston, but now you need to cut retainer groves in a piston, or buttons to hold the wrist pin.
Are the sleves good enough to use? Start running some rings into out of round, tapered sleves and it won't seal, push them into the unworn top part and you'll have junk in a hurry.
The Massey rod and an automotive piston are cheap. A set of 1.56 compression height pistons on the massey rod, and you'll pick up a littel stroke offset grinding it. $80 will buy you a set of 8 hyperutectic pistons from Summit, add some rings and your sleve boreing, crank offset grinding, etc. It'll soak up several hundred bucks no matter what.
You really aren't going to notice .100" inch of stroke, it just makes the rod fit. It takes a set of rods and a crank grinding to get it. If the crank has to be ground anyway then the additional cost isn't much to offset grind, but if you don't need to grind the crank than it's a waste.
The other cheap thing you can do is use your crank and rods, use a WD type piston with a higher compression height. You'll have to figure out the comp height of the piston and run some compression numbers for yourself to make sure you are safe, and or trim the pistons.
I have a set of 8.5" long rods I made, they use an Allis berring, allis bottom end, chev top end and boxed, balanced and sized for a .927 pin or a simple hone to .928 piston pin. There's a good selection of automotive pistons available to make some 9 to 13 to 1 compression combinations. I made the rods thiking I was going use them with an automotive piston in 4.125 or 4.155 bore. I have a real nice set of sleves that need to be bored, new O rings for them and these rods. There's several pistons available to make a 9 to 12 to 1 comp. I would sell the rods if you are interested, I changed plans.
I have a set of M&W pistons from an WD, the compression height is high enough that they are .015 above the block deck when you add up the numbers. THe head gasket is .045 thick and this gives me a .030 squish band in theory. The bowl of the pistons is 70cc, this puts the compression around 13.5 to 1 which is to high. But there's plenty of room in the piston bowls that I can trim them in the lathe and cut some valve reliefs in them. I'm targeting 11.5 to 1 compression in a "quench" engine, a mild carb and a decent cam. My head and manifold are worked over well and I would hope it can make around 70 hp on the PTO.
A few weeks agoe someone posted pictures of a M&W AP46 from a WD that they had on a 4.5 stroke engine. No work done and the valves hit the piston, they also stated that the wrist pin boss was breaking. THese old cast pistons will not support that kind of compression but to get one down under 12 to 1, and preferably around 11 to 1 I would think you could have a good running cheap engine and it will live a long life. Compression is only an indication, a good head and cam will make up for a few points of compression, I'd rather see a good breathing 10 to 1 engine, then a poor breathing 12 to 1.
Edited by wi50 - 02 Jan 2011 at 10:16pm |
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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CTuckerNWIL ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: NW Illinois Points: 22823 |
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Benny, using a longer rod will do nothing to the stroke. It will only change the position of the piston at TDC. If however you use a longer rod with a smaller journal diameter, you can offset grind the crank to make the stroke longer$$
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http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
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