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mnickel 
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Joined: 28 Aug 2017
Location: Tofield, AB
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 Topic: WC Head - What do you think?
Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 10:32pm |
Hi All! I am new to the forum and to the tractor restoring hobby! I recently got this 1947 Allis-Chalmers WC and it was burning oil pretty good. I'm hoping it will be fine with a new set of rings and valves, guides, etc. I got the head off the other day and thought I would put these pictures out there to see what you guys thought of the shape of this head. As you can hopefully see from the exhaust valves, there doesn't seem to be much surface area contacting the valve seat, is that normal? Any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated!
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MDWilliams338
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Joined: 19 Nov 2018
Location: NC
Points: 474
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Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 10:43pm |
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If I’m seeing what I think I am from my hideous iPhone I’d put new seats in it all the way across while I had it down.The intake seats don’t look too bad but again,on my crappy iPhone 🤓
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‘42B,’45B,’48C,’51CA,’52CA,’69170,1935WC,1936WC,WD,WD Highcrop,WD45,WF,D10/14/15/17/19
It isn’t how you die.It’s what you live for.-Daniel Boone
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DiyDave
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Gambrills, MD
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Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 5:05am |
Something looks a little amiss, on cyl#3, from the left. Looks like it was running a little rich, compared to the others... 
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B26240
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Joined: 21 Nov 2009
Location: mn
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Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 6:30am |
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You need to check the guide/valve stem clearance as that can be a problem as far as oil burning. As for the seats the best way to see what they are like is to lightly touch them with the seat grinding stone and see if stone contacts all the way around. Of coarse clean head before doing this. What does the cylinder boars look like? My experience has been it's hard to get like new results by washing up old parts and reusing. Having said all that I will add if tractor has set for a long time the oil burning MAY improve some after working the tractor a few hours, keep us posted !!
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AaronSEIA
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Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Mt Pleasant, IA
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Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 6:34am |
Its off. I'd have a shop put new guides and seats in. AaronSEIA
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Alberta Phil
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Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Location: Alberta, Canada
Points: 3858
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Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 10:04am |
Madison got this tractor from me and it was running OK but did burn oil. Smoke was evident from the exhaust, but not to the extent of a "mosquito fogger"! I suspect worn valve guides and probably worn rings and bores. He got a nice WF from me earlier and has done a beautiful job on the restoration!!
Pictures, Madison!
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Gerald J.
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Hamilton Co, IA
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Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 10:10am |
I have a WC shop manual on line in nine pieces in the directory: http://geraldj.networkiowa.com/TreesGerald J.
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Don(MO)
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Bates City MO.
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Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 10:47am |
If that head came in the shop before telling the owner what it needs done I'd ask what's the old "WC" going to do after the repair, is it going back to hard work or going into retirement and just see shows, that will be a big factor in what I do inside a engine or in this case the head. Please tell us more about what the tractor is going to be doing.
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3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep.
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Dick L
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Location: Edon Ohio
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Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 11:32am |
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If I had the head I would put in new guides which is easy and cheap. No need for new seats installed as the seats are not inserts now can be touched up with a light grind. The narrow seat is fine. All the valves need sparked out on a valve grinder. It looks like you only have two that were leaking. Looking down from the top of the valve guides it look like some carbon build up from a valve leaking hot air around the stem. Looking at two seats that are not shiny is more than likely where the hot air blow by was coming from. I would take it to a engine shop and talk to them about touching it up only what it actually needs to keep the cost down.
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Phil48ACWC
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Joined: 17 Jan 2013
Location: Vermont
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Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 11:42am |
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=umbrella+valve+seals+for+3%2F8%22+Valve+stems&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_osacat=0&_odkw=BBC+umbrella+valve+seals&LH_TitleDesc=0
Most oil consumption is from oil going from crank case past the piston rings and burnt in the combustion process. Oil consumption is also from oil going down valve guides along the valve stems into the combustion process. Lastly oil leaks depending how bad can cause serious oil consumption. Have the head rebuilt and use 3/8" umbrella valve seals on both intake and exhaust valves. Click on above. You may need a complete engine overhaul with rings, pistons, cylinder liners, cam bearings, rod bearings, main bearings, and full gasket set. Click on below for parts cost etc. I just did my 1948 WC and it runs great and hasn't used any oil between the last two oil changes with 10W-30 oil and 100 hours between changes. Overhauls are not cheap but they are very rewarding. See picture of my WC doing its' thing this morning.
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Sugarmaker
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Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
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Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 12:46pm |
Welcome, I will go back and read your thread. Yes we need tractor pictures! Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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mnickel
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Joined: 28 Aug 2017
Location: Tofield, AB
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Posted: 21 Nov 2018 at 7:24pm |
Thanks for the advice! I appreciate it! Yes, as Phil said it wasn't too bad, but since I need to replace the front crankshaft seal and a few gaskets that are leaking, I thought I might as well check the head and block. The block doesn't look too bad, but I'm not totally sure what I'm looking for. I can't feel a ridge or anything on the sleeves. I might post a picture later and we can see what we can come up with.
My plan with it is to try and fix the oil burning, fix a few oil leaks, get a new drawbar, and give it a new paint job. It won't be put to work much, but may go in the odd parade. See pics below.
I'll post some pics of my WF under a different topic!
Edited by mnickel - 21 Nov 2018 at 7:26pm
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Phil48ACWC
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Location: Vermont
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 6:47am |
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Worth overhaul IMO.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 7:46am |
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Any West-Allis built engine ( 125-138-149-160-201-W226-G226) never used valve stem umbrella seals of any kind. OK on Fords and Chevys but not on an A-C.
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Dick L
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Location: Edon Ohio
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 8:21am |
To agree to Dr Allis and add to, I have pictures of heads I have been into with the umbrella seals and the extra wear from lack of lubrication caused by the seals. If you want to use the umbrella seals you can buy Chevy valves and guides that (might) work as it does in the Chevys. Here are the seals  Look at the gap beside the stem  The guide holes are not all round and the one on the right was way oversized.  I put new guides in every head I had off an old tractor and touched up the seats and sparked the valves even if they looked good. I also sparked every new valve I put in to be sure they were going to seat properly. Not that I ever found a bad new valve but I have found other incorrect new parts. Parts are made by people and they do make mistakes from time to time. I sure do in any case. If your guides are sloppy the valve can not seat properly.
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Phil48ACWC
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 10:30am |
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In Dick L 's picture, someone put 2 umbrella seals in opposite directions on each valve. Sorry that's wrong. Put 1 on each valve with open end towards valve guide. After assembling valves, reach between valve spring coils with a small screw driver and lift the seal up to the bottom of the valve keeper and lock. This way the valve stem is exposed to the oil mist and gets plenty of oil for lubrication. Oil accumulates on top of the valve keepers and leaks down the gap between the valve locks and down the valve stem to the valve guide. On the intake valve, the oil goes into the combustion chamber and is burned. Also when the hot engine is shut down, oil runs down and accumulates on the back side of the valve and shows up as a puff of blue smoke upon hot restart. On the exhaust valve, some oil goes out the exhaust and some cokes up on the back of the valve upon shut down of a hot engine. Both intake and exhaust valves benefit from the proper use of umbrella seals.
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Dick L
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 10:56am |
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These engines were not designed for those seals. Probly dumber than rocks engineers since it was 80 years ago with the engineers being in the 30 years old. That was back when engineers didn't have the knowledge that the average mechanic has now. We all know anyone over 50 doesn't know which end is up. No idea what was in the persons mind that put two seals on these valves. Put the seals on and take the tractor out and work it hard ten twelve hours a day from spring to fall for ten years and see what you have. Being 80 years old and seeing all the things that happened because people were smarter than the dumb engineers of the 20's and 30's I personally would not put the umbrella seals on where they were not designed if I was planning on working the tractor.
PS: You might want to adjust the sarcasm meter up a tad.
Edited by Dick L - 22 Nov 2018 at 10:59am
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Phil48ACWC
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 1:16pm |
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HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!
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mnickel
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 1:23pm |
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Thanks for the advice! Happy Thanksgiving!
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chaskaduo
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 1:28pm |
Phil48ACWC How would you keep the umbrella seal from working its way back down by movement and gravity, and covering the stem from the oil mist? Happy Thanks giving back.
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1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp
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Phil48ACWC
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 4:30pm |
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With new umbrella seals, they fit tight to the valve stem and they do stay up. I use Comp Cams valve seals made for 3/8" valve stems and never had a problem. I've gone back to do valve adjustments and all the valve seals were up against the keepers.
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chaskaduo
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 4:42pm |
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Thanks
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1938 B, 79 Dynamark 11/36 6spd, 95 Weed-Eater 16hp, 2010 Bolens 14hp
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Phil48ACWC
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 4:56pm |
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Look at the 3rd picture from Dick L post. Notice the coked oil and carbon that built up in the exhaust port behind the valve. That's from oil running down the valve stem past the guide. It had valve seals improperly installed, per the 1st picture, causing guide wear and then the seals wore because there's not supposed to be stem to seal movement. The top inverted seal acted like a funnel collecting oil that came through the keeper and the gap between the locks allowing excessive oil past the guide causing the heavy carbon and coked oil build up.
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Phil48ACWC
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Posted: 22 Nov 2018 at 4:59pm |
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The intake valve is not coked up with oil in the picture because it doesn't get hot enough.
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