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Wc flat top pistons in a 170

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Zaddison View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 Sep 2013 at 2:37pm
Hey guys
I put a motor out of a 170 in my unstyled wc that I pull.
I kinda thought half inch longer stroke, 8-1 comp.
and little better head would be perfect. Then when
I went to the pulls I still got whipped. A old man told
Me to put the pistons out of the wc motor in it for a
Little more power. I've heard of guys putting a wd
45 crank in a wc block and leaving the flat top pistons
For pulling. But i dont know I'm new to the allis world
Any help would be great.
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patrickmull View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickmull Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2013 at 2:46pm
it will up your comp. and help
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CTuckerNWIL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CTuckerNWIL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2013 at 3:15pm
I thought there was a post a while back with the factory specs on compression ratios and piston to pin dimensions and the 170  couldn't be increased by using WC pistons.
 It would still be possible to up the ratio by changing other things.
 To win at pulls now a days you need more than stock parts and a couple days after work in the garage. It takes $$$$$ and a lot of experience if you wanna win consistently.
http://www.ae-ta.com
Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF
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Zaddison View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaddison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2013 at 3:25pm
That's what I was afraid of. Even tho it was flat I didn't know about comp.
hiegth on this pistons. I tried to find something on this but I'm new to this
Fourm and didn't have any luck. Thanks for the help
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Glockhead SWMI View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glockhead SWMI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2013 at 3:38pm
Did you power out or spin? A lot more to it than just HP.
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Zaddison View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaddison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2013 at 3:40pm
Would I be better off to put a wd45 crank in my wc block.
Leave my wc rods and flat top pistond in it.
Put the 170 head,manifold and carb on it if possible and maybe the 170 govner spring.
From what I'm reading on this fourm that would make more comp. then what I have.
I'm running 16.9/26 field and roads with a rc ring and pinion.
I place in the 3500 at are small local pulls but that's it I don't even try the 4000.
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Zaddison View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaddison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2013 at 3:41pm
Normally power out unless its a slick track
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2013 at 6:17pm
Having a hard time believing a real 170 engine with 180 psi compression (carb included) powers out in a WC chassis weighing 3500 or 4000 lbs in low gear with an RC ring and pinion. I'm sorry. That engine must not be tuned/timed correctly, or you have way meaner dirt than I've ever been on. That engine (in good tune) with a 2-14's plow should run 3rd gear easily in the toughest soils with a WC ring and pinion, let alone an RC ring and pinion.
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Zaddison View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaddison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2013 at 6:30pm
Sorry ment want a rc ring and pinion. like I said befor new to the Allis world but that's what the guy said it was.
Ill look at it and get the number off the block and tell you guys because I really don't know.
I'd like to know more but I'm not goin to lie cause I'm here for help. Thanks
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2013 at 6:43pm
Take some pictures of BOTH sides of the engine, so it might be better verified what you really have. Engine s/n is behind the carb, behind the air cleaner hose/tube. If is really is a 170 engine, it will say 170-xxxxx or maybe 17-xxxxx.
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Zaddison View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaddison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2013 at 8:21pm
The only number I can read is to the right of the carb and its 7-6645-Z.
As far as pics I can load them there to big. I put a mag on it I also put the water pump and my crank pulley off my wc so I could start it. It runs good and sounds strong till it starts to lose rpms then it falls flat on its face.
Is this be cause I'm running a mag? Ill try to post some picks for u guys.
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2013 at 9:27pm
Sounds like the correct engine. What is your mag timing set at ?? used a timing light, correct ??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2013 at 9:37pm
In fact, he magneto is a very bad idea. There's no advance mechanism in it to change/retard the timing as the engine is lugged down.
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Zaddison View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaddison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2013 at 9:39pm
Drallis im sure i sound like a idiot but That's just it I'm not sure how to time it.
I have a timing light but not sure where to check are there timing marks like a car.
If so wat should it be set at. Sorry for all the quistens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JC(WI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2013 at 9:50pm
Keep askin your questions Zaddison, only really dumb ones are the ones that aren't asked... and there is lot of knowledge in the guys here.  ... and maybe some one else is watching too.
He who says there is no evil has already deceived himself
The truth is the truth, sugar coated or not. Trawler II says, "Remember that."
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2013 at 10:14pm
Before you installed the engine, there were two marks on the OD of the flywheel near where the pressure plate mounting bolts are. One is "Fire" or "F" which is 30 degrees BTDC and the other mark is TDC.  Using a tape measure, the distance between the two marks is 30 degrees, so it's not hard to figure out where 25 degree BTDC is located, and make a chisel mark there for 25 degrees BTDC. Now, with the foot clutch cover removed, there is a pointer cast into the bottom front of the bellhousing. It's kind of crude, but the pointer is at 6 o'clock straight down. While laying on your back with the timing light AIMED at the flywheel and cast pointer, adjust the timing to 25 degrees BTDC with the engine running WIDE OPEN. Get rid of the mag and use the factory distributor. When in tune, this engine should run good and have way more HP than a WC engine ever did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mattb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2013 at 7:21am
id make sure your getting enough fuel screw the load needle out in the carb noway u should run out of power if its running right. I have the same engine as you with flattops compression went from 140 with stock pistons to 200 with flat tops. there are different flats tops out there so be wary of the pin height.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glockhead SWMI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2013 at 8:05am
Put a distributer on it and get it timed right. That engine when tuned properly should have plenty of power.
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Zaddison View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaddison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2013 at 11:36am
Mattb where can I buy these flat top pistons or are they costum.
What do u Guys think about a step down I think I've got one bought for $350.
Is this worth the money? Or should I stop wasting my time and go to the bank and withdrawal some real money.
I know you can make a allis run good cause they're the only things we can't beat on our deeres.
Would say $3000 get me a crank, rods and pistons or am I not even close on money?
I love pullin my unstyled a but it's time to move on to a real tractor!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie175 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2013 at 12:10pm
a step down drops the speed about 1 mph from stock
Charlie

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2013 at 12:20pm
Interesting. We change engines to something that should have nearly double the flywheel HP a stock WC would have. It apparently doesn't run as well as the old WC engine. So, instead of tuning the newer engine to it's potential, we're changing gearboxes and building an even bigger engine. I'd prefer to think finishing the job you started would be the right thing to do, that is, make the 67 flywheel HP engine run to it's potential. Good luck.
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Zaddison View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zaddison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2013 at 12:51pm
Dr allis it does have more power then the wc motor.
I just thought it should make or perform better then it does.
After being on this fourm I now know what I need to do and check to make it run right.
As far as building a motor I was just asking for a rough estiment.
Even with a tuned allis 170 motor I still wouldn't compete with the 100 horse wc that 4 to 55 and win.
I asked about the step down cause I have a taller tire and its hard to stay under the three mph speed limit and keep some rpms up. So I guess I'm sorry for wasting your time but thanks for the information you've told me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WildBill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2013 at 3:22pm
SOMETHING IS MESSED UP WITH YOUR TUNING ZADDISON.. SIMPLY PUT !!!   GET RID OF THE MAG AND TUNE IT.  I JUST READ THE POST AND U QUOTED POWERING OUT IN THOSE CLASSES ??  IDK SOMETHING IS NOT ADDING UP ZADDISON ?  JUST MY OPINION !
Allis fan for life !   B,C,2-WC'S,WD45G,D19G,190xt ,LLSS 8010, terra tiger refurbished
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hudsonator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2013 at 6:41pm
I'm with DrAllis, I'd check everything over on the 170 engine first. See if its cylinder pressure is up to par, governors acting properly, carb funtioning good, etc.
 
second note, a properly set up mag with a good coil and fully contacting points will yeild as much hp as a distributor.  Properly setting one up is dang near a lost art.
There isn't much a WC can't do.

WD's just do it better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2013 at 7:33pm
My concern with a mag in this application is no timing advance mechanism. The model 170 gas engine reaches peak torque at 900 rpm and that doesn't happen with the timing still at 25 degrees BTDC. I'd guess the timing is down to 10 or 12 degrees BTDC at that slow of speed ??  and a mag can't do that, right ???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hudsonator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2013 at 7:18pm
Dr. Allis
 
By the time an engine of this type is at 900 rpm - its dead.  I really can't recall the last time I saw one of these engines pulling at 900 rpm, that wasn't choking out anyway.
 
I've pulled with both, a mag and a distributor.  All the mechanical advance did for me was help me idle around the pits much smoother.
 
Set the timing on a mag for peak hp at the running rpm. note the amount of advance - then dail in the "lag angle" of the mag to be 4 degrees + the amount of advance for starting.  I've never seen an allis distributor that wasn't "all in" less than 1200 rpm - not many pullers run below this.
 
On the farm, I absolutely agree with you - the mechanical advance of a distributor is a huge plus.  Pulling, not so much.  But then, who do you know who can set up a good mag in the first place?  That's the real problem.
 
Distributors are "safer" in my opinion - simply because more people understand them and are easier to deal with.  Mags are limited, but the rpm range of effective pulling is too.
There isn't much a WC can't do.

WD's just do it better.
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