This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity.
The Forum Parts and Services Unofficial Allis Store Tractor Shows Serial Numbers History
Forum Home Forum Home > Allis Chalmers > Farm Equipment
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


WC Dilema

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
Message
Allis dave View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 10 May 2012
Location: Northern IN
Points: 3042
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allis dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2023 at 9:33am
Check the mains with a plastigauge and if they are in spec go wiht it. Also make sure it turns freely after torquing down the main caps.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
DrAllis View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 21830
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2023 at 12:26pm
The odds of someone align-boring it to eliminate the shims would be VERY SLIM. Only tractor pullers do things like that. The set-up time and labor to do this exceeds the cost of the shims, so why would any farmer or implement dealer do such a thing ???
Back to Top
HudCo View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Location: Plymouth Utah
Points: 3892
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HudCo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2023 at 8:33pm
line boring my 45 was expensive 10 years ago
Back to Top
WF owner View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 May 2013
Location: Bombay NY
Points: 5009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2023 at 6:17am
Some people say line boring should always be done when rebuilding an engine. My argument (to that) is these engines easily went 60+ years with shims. The hardest work they will ever do, is mostly long behind them. Unless you are building an engine with extensive modifications, a shimmed crankshaft engine will probably easily outlive most of us.
Back to Top
SEIA Farmer View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 03 Apr 2019
Location: keota
Points: 49
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SEIA Farmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2023 at 8:09am
Like I said earlier in this thread, this is a family tractor.  I purchased it from the original owner in 1977, and as far back as I can remember, 10-12 years before that, as I was 17 in '77, it sat outside his corncrib to run his elevator to put earcorn in the crib.  It was his first tractor, then got relegated to "elevator tractor" after he upgraded to a WD, then later a D17.  He retired from farming in the late 60s, and I faintly remember him using the WC before then.  It was used to fill the crib in the fall, then he'd put a can on the exhaust and let it set, outside by the elevator, until the crib needed filled again.  It had sat for so long, the tires were rotted off of it when I bought it.  I would drive by on my way to town, and see it setting there, almost feeling sorry for the ole thing.  The horseweeds would grow up around it in the summer, and you couldn't even tell there was a tractor setting there.  After several attempts to buy it from him, he finally decided he wasn't going to use it anymore, and sold it to me for $25!  I was a junior in high school at the time, and this was my first tractor!  That's why I decided to restore a common ole WC, that'll never be worth what I've put into it!
   As for the condition of the engine, it was loose when I got it, and after tinkering on it for a few days, I got it to run, but it started hard, so I just thought it needed overhauled.  After using it for a water wagon tractor for a few years, it got replaced with a better tractor, and I sold it to my uncle, where it sat in his shed for 15-20 years until I bought it back from him.
   Dad said this old neighbor guy did most of his own mechanical work, but I have no idea what was done to the engine before I got it, except it'd been updated to the WD sleeves and pistons at some point. I have no idea what was ever done to the crank, if anything.  Like I said, I don't have any evidence of it ever having shims on the mains when I took it apart.
   Here's where I'm leaning...I'm going to check the clearance on the mains again, and get some shims to add, if they're less than .005", to loosen things up a little.  It had good oil pressure when I ran it, so if I use 30 wt oil in it, it should be OK.  If I'm wrong, and it spins a main bearing, I've got a parts tractor that I can get a block from, and start over again!  I know it sounds crazy to some of you, but I'm glad I don't need it to farm with, and I don't want to park it and forget about it again.  I'm in too deep to stop now!  Any suggestions are welcome.
Back to Top
DrAllis View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 21830
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2023 at 8:22am
You've ruined the front main bearing, which is undersized. I imagine you'll have to purchase another complete set of main bearing shells again. The machine shop can get the main cap shims in a "set". Get the new shims for the main caps and install them like any old AC mechanic would have done. It's the way it was designed to be. New bearings. New shims. 
Back to Top
WF owner View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 May 2013
Location: Bombay NY
Points: 5009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2023 at 9:36am
If you aren't already using one, I suggest you get an Allis Chalmers Service Manual, not an IT manual. The AC manual is much more detailed and helpful.
Back to Top
SEIA Farmer View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 03 Apr 2019
Location: keota
Points: 49
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SEIA Farmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2023 at 10:29am
I have the AC Service Manual, IT service manual, parts book, and original owners manual (which has entertainment value only).  The IT manual actually explains how to replace the crank bearings without removing the engine, so I'm going to get a new set of bearings and shims, and go that route.  Wish me luck! 
Back to Top
WF owner View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 May 2013
Location: Bombay NY
Points: 5009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2023 at 10:33am
You're a brave man! I would never tackle shimming a crankshaft with the engine in the tractor. I find it difficult enough with gravity on my side.



Edited by WF owner - 03 May 2023 at 10:34am
Back to Top
Sugarmaker View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
Points: 8476
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2023 at 1:38pm
SEIA Farmer,
Well, I am running a WD45 engine with no shims on the crank bearings to block. The block was line honed by machine shop. Crank ground, new bearings installed throughout. Seems to run real good. Maybe it will lock up on the next event we enter, or during our plowing event next week? Not a high end expensive pulling engine. Just a good fresh engine build. I did scrape the seat areas on the sleeves until all the sleeves were approx .004-.005 proud, if I remember correctly. 
Hope the engine rework in your WC works out for you, to be able to enjoy your Allis!
 Regards,
 Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 03 May 2023 at 1:41pm
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
Back to Top
Les Kerf View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
Points: 1253
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2023 at 4:57pm
It was not uncommon for farmers to file or grind bearing caps in order tighten things up a bit. These bearing bores need to carefully examined; a dial bore gauge and someone who knows how to properly use it would be in order.
Back to Top
SEIA Farmer View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 03 Apr 2019
Location: keota
Points: 49
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SEIA Farmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2023 at 4:56pm
Progress report:  I got a new set of .020" under main bearings and shims, and started pulling things apart today to install them.  Glad I decided to go with new bearing inserts because the top half of the front one that was siezed was in worse shape than the bottomhalf.  The crank was acually not too bad to drop down to remove the bearing inserts.  The IT manual tells how to do it, so that's why I got up the courage to go for it. 
   I did find something that I thought didn't look right though.  When I pushed the inserts out, they were installed with both of the locating tabs on the same side of the bearing which also puts both of the oil holes in the inserts on the same side of the journal rather than opposite of each other.  The service manual says to put the bearing caps on with the stamped number corresponding to the number on the block, which is on the gasket surface, towards the front left of the block.  That is the way they were installed, which puts the tabs and oil holes on the same side of the bearing journal, which I thought looked odd.  Shouldn't they be opposite of each other for maximum lubrication?  Doc, please advise!
   I'm going to put it all back together with a new set of shims, then check the clearance with plastigauge to see if we're still within specs.  Hopefully nothing was stretched too bad!  If it's too far off, I should be able to file the bearing caps a little to snug things up?
Back to Top
DrAllis View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 21830
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2023 at 5:10pm
Some engine are tab to tab and other engines are opposite tabs. That's why I ALWAYS mark things. The book is correct in that the number aligns with the number stamped on the pan gasket surface. File on the main cap surface ?? You must be kidding......      Trying to plastigauge in-chassis with the weight of the crankshaft smashing the plastigauge doesn't really work either.

Edited by DrAllis - 08 May 2023 at 5:45pm
Back to Top
SEIA Farmer View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 03 Apr 2019
Location: keota
Points: 49
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SEIA Farmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2023 at 9:21pm
This engine is tab to tab...the only main cap that could be changed is the middle one, but lining up the numbers is tab to tab, so be it.  I put in the new inserts with 2 new .004" shims on each side of the bearing caps, and came up with .005" clearance after checking with plastigauge @ 85 ftlbs of torque.  Should I remove some shims to get it closer to .002-.003"?  What can I expect if I put it back together like that?  Too much clearance, I know, but it had very good oil pressure before, so what will it hurt, with light use, to run it like that?
   Like I said before, this is a family tractor.  I'm not trying to patch it together just to pawn off onto someone to make a couple bucks.  It's going to stay in the family, and I just want it to run well, so I can play with it with my kids and grand kids!
Back to Top
WF owner View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 May 2013
Location: Bombay NY
Points: 5009
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WF owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2023 at 5:09am
First of all, I would use an AC service manual, not IT. The AC manual goes into a lot more detail.

I, personally, would go with the service manual specs, which IIRC is .002 - .003.
Back to Top
SteveM C/IL View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Shelbyville IL
Points: 8612
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2023 at 8:33am
No harder than it is to remove the engine to flip it and do crank work, I can't imagine why you insist on doing it the way you are. No time to do it right but time to do it over? Isn't plastigauge work to be done with dry brgs for true reading? Oily crank in frame with weight of crank hanging?  Good luck.
Back to Top
SEIA Farmer View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 03 Apr 2019
Location: keota
Points: 49
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SEIA Farmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2023 at 11:04am
  I have several reasons for doing it this way. 1) My shop time is extremely limited for "toy" projects this time of year, as my time is usually tied up with repairs on machinery I need to farm with, and field work.  For me to "do it right", I'd need 2-3 weeks, which is only available in the winter. 2) I've got the head gasket issue sealed up and I don't want to remove it again. 3) The crank is hanging just fine with  the connecting rods holding it in place. 4) I figured this old machinery was designed for shade tree mechanics to keep it running.  The farmers that worked on these 80 years ago didn't go to the trouble to get the engine line bored, or checked over with a precision micro-bore gauge when it needed snugged up a little.5) Sometimes you have to go for it, and not get too uptight about things, to see what you can get by with.  I'd rather be lucky than perfect any day!
   I know I've got several of you guys shaking your heads and rolling your eyes at this project.  I understand it wasn't done right the first time, I just want to correct it best I can with the limited timeline I'm up against.  I want to thank everybody that's given advise and encouragement on it.  That's what these forums should be for...to promote the antique tractor hobby, encourage the DIYers, and help us learn from our mistakes so others can avoid them.
   I've got the new bearing inserts ready to be torqued, and put back together.  I've got a new set of shims, and it's come down to one question.  Do I put two shims in (2x.004=.008" on each side) for a bearing clearance of .004-.005, or just go with one each side, and file the inserts for a .002-.003 final clearance?  This is the point where I got at last time, and thought .002" of clearance was enough, without using any shims!
   This isn't going to be a pulling tractor, or do any plowing or heavy farm work. It probably won't get more than 10-20 hours of run time per year.  What will it hurt to be a little loose?  Like I said before...I just want it to start and run well, and not leave someone stranded in a parade!
Back to Top
steve(ill) View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 87578
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2023 at 1:23pm
.001 extra loose is a lot better than .001 too tight !
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
Back to Top
Les Kerf View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
Points: 1253
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Les Kerf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2023 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by SEIA Farmer SEIA Farmer wrote:

  ....The crank is hanging just fine with  the connecting rods holding it in place... 

...I'd rather be lucky than perfect any day!


Your luck will be enhanced if you make certain that the crank is pushed up snug against the upper main bearing shell when you do the plastigage thing Wink
Back to Top
Sugarmaker View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Location: Albion PA
Points: 8476
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2023 at 7:05am
SEIA Farmer,
 Your doing good! And your not getting feisty with suggestions about ways to do the work. You have a plan. And my guess is you will win. Might take a couple runs at it but we all do some of those things in life! The main thing is your "doing" not just talking about it!
Good luck and I hope your family WC is running well for you soon!
We need some pictures!
Regards,
 Chris
 


Edited by Sugarmaker - 11 May 2023 at 7:06am
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
Back to Top
SEIA Farmer View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 03 Apr 2019
Location: keota
Points: 49
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SEIA Farmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2023 at 5:14am
Project Update: Engine is all back together and runs well.  I went with a new set of .020 under inserts in all 3 mains, and put in the complete set of new shims.  I can tell it's turning over and running much more freely than before.  Yes, it can be done with the engine in the tractor, without removing the crankshaft.  Nearest I can tell, is I've got .004-.005 bearing clearance using the plastigauge, which I know is probably not the most accurate way to measure things, but it's all I got, and better than nothing.  The crank was sized, and the new bearing inserts should be uniform circumference, without being crushed from the shims removed, so I figured I've got a tighter engine than the majority of these old things that are still out there running with decades of wear on their bearings!
   With the bottom issues taken care of, and the head gasket all sealed up, with all the fluids staying in their respective cavities, now I can concentrate on starting issues!  I suspect that should be addressed in another new different thread, so we can put this one in the archives?  Thanks again for all the comments and encourgement on this project, and I promise to get some pictures on here as soon as I can figure out how to do it!  I think I'm going to have to have my IT guy (computer engineer son-in-law) help me out.  He's much better with these "puter things" than I am!  I know it'll be much faster, and less stressful for everybody!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.


Help Support the
Unofficial Allis Forum