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Trucking industry going to c÷=p

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DougG View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09 Dec 2019 at 9:17am
Celadon, a big trucking outfit is filing for bankrupty after shutting down today, VW now owns 18% of Navistar, they are finally making money ,must have gotten to be a worse cut throat business as before!
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Self-driving truck startup TuSimple raises $95 million, breaks “unicorn” barrier

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self driving trucks... long hauls will probably be no driver in it at all... and the trucker loses his job... End up just being a spotter at the delivery point... or the warehouse forklift driver to unload it... Lost jobs taken over by automation.
 Just think of the wreaks there would be if gps and the computer signals all get corrupted... .  man made disaster waiting to happen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2019 at 10:14am
Just seen News 59 had an article about how Celadons CEO and another guy at the top stole millions from the company thru stocks and fraud
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2019 at 10:27am
I saw yesterday that a Telsa 'selfdrive' car RAMMED into 2 cars ! One of them a COP car !!! I cringe at the thought of the deaths and destruction a 'selfdriving' semi would cause.

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Celadon, Swift and a Few others are steadily in decline as they work on LowBall pricing to keep trucks moving, have put others out of business in this process so I do not feel for the business. Some of the Drivers I would not allow t drive a go cart to deliver cattle supplement in a field let alone on the road, just terrible as far as "Driver", we referred to them as Truck Herders and even at that feel sorry they abandoned them on the road.

Are more driving jobs than good drivers out there, the reputable ones will find work, those that just managed will likely move to something else.
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Don't know how a self driving truck will ever make it, the self driving car keep wrecking
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote desertjoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 3:33am

 The good thing bout livin in a rural community is we ain't got to worry for some time for them self drivers to get a foothold here,,,,,I just cannot imagine drivin alongside a "semi" loaded with many thousand lbs of cargo,,,,with NO Driver,,,chit,,,,!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nella(Pa) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 4:50am
Originally posted by tadams(OH) tadams(OH) wrote:

Don't know how a self driving truck will ever make it, the self driving car keep wrecking


Just think, self flying airplanes. They already have them!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 6:38am
re: Just think, self flying airplanes. They already have them!

yes, but fewer of them( planes) and LOTS more room ( THREE dimensions ).

Today's pilot can press a few buttons at end of runway, press 'go', sit back and sleep, computers do everything, even land at destination. Well, that's how the tech should work, cept sadly in 737 max8s.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 7:09am
Originally posted by desertjoe desertjoe wrote:


 The good thing bout livin in a rural community is we ain't got to worry for some time for them self drivers to get a foothold here,,,,,I just cannot imagine drivin alongside a "semi" loaded with many thousand lbs of cargo,,,,with NO Driver,,,chit,,,,!!!
I hear that!
 
On the other hand........a few years ago on my way to Chicago, came up behind a semi not really staying in his lane all that well.  Had the opportunity to finally zip around him with some extra room, and......wait for it.....had a newspaper opened up and flipping through it!!!!  Least he wasn't texting, right?WinkLOL
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Have seen all manner of 'Distracted' drivers, even saw two getting it on driving down the road where was NO WAY he was watching the road with her all over him. SCARY!!

Have seen guys and Gals looking at a Computer or rooting thru a pile of work papers in the passenger seat driving NO HANDS on the wheel, all TOO many just thumb hammering away, even spotted similar with people reading books or newspaper or some other printed stuff just careening down the road.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allisrutledge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2019 at 9:26am
I ran off the road many times looking in old barns! We need a law to protect distracted tractor collectors from people that ain't driving their cars.
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Ought to be a law about leaving old barn doors open with old collectable tractors in them that are viewable from the Hwy. Wink
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I can't see the driver being replaced any time soon. Is the robot going to hear that funny noise coming from the rear end. Is it going to know the trailer is on fire? Will it know the oil pressure or air pressure has went to zero? When a tire blows, will it know? I'm sure with time all these can be monitored but it is so much more than keeping it between the ditches.
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Wait 'till it hits black ice on the highway!!  Then look out!!
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Read an article yesterday.  Some of the drivers are being recruited by other companies.  Sad part was they needed to rent a UHaul van to relocate everything they have in the truck.  One guy had to wait almost a day for the company to activate his fuel card so he could bring the truck back.  Said he filled out applications while he waited.  Gotta be a tumultuous time for those folks.
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Originally posted by Stan IL&TN Stan IL&TN wrote:

I can't see the driver being replaced any time soon. Is the robot going to hear that funny noise coming from the rear end. Is it going to know the trailer is on fire? Will it know the oil pressure or air pressure has went to zero? When a tire blows, will it know? I'm sure with time all these can be monitored but it is so much more than keeping it between the ditches.
Oil pressure: already monitored by the computer.  We already have tire pressure monitoring.  Air pressure, just another pressure sensor to the computer, easy as it gets.  A strange noise in the rear end can be detected by vibration, or temperature, or change in torque, or.....All this stuff is either already done, or easy to do, or right on the horizon.  To make an interface from this computer to another is no problem at all. 
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Originally posted by Alberta Phil Alberta Phil wrote:

Wait 'till it hits black ice on the highway!!  Then look out!!
Like the gravel train that hit black ice in front of my son a couple years back?  he was following the gravel train, it started to swerve, ended up going down the road backwards looking out his windshield at my son before he went in the ditch.
 
So how is this better than an automated system?  Automated system could be instantly informed of road conditions, and react before a human ever could, and react in the best way.  So might some of the very best drivers, but not for the careless idiots.  An automated system won't be getting road head, won't be looking at tractors, won't be texting somebody, won't be trying to do something else or keep up on paperwork or.....in short, won't ever be distracted.  Hacked?  Maybe?  Total failure of some kind?  Maybe.  But put it all into perspective with statistics, and which way is safer?  I don't necessarily like it either, but most of the arguments here don't really stand up to scrutiny, at least not on a likelihood to happen basis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LouSWPA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2019 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by Tbone95 Tbone95 wrote:

Originally posted by Alberta Phil Alberta Phil wrote:

Wait 'till it hits black ice on the highway!!  Then look out!!

Like the gravel train that hit black ice in front of my son a couple years back?  he was following the gravel train, it started to swerve, ended up going down the road backwards looking out his windshield at my son before he went in the ditch.
 
So how is this better than an automated system?  Automated system could be instantly informed of road conditions, and react before a human ever could, and react in the best way.  So might some of the very best drivers, but not for the careless idiots.  An automated system won't be getting road head, won't be looking at tractors, won't be texting somebody, won't be trying to do something else or keep up on paperwork or.....in short, won't ever be distracted.  Hacked?  Maybe?  Total failure of some kind?  Maybe.  But put it all into perspective with statistics, and which way is safer?  I don't necessarily like it either, but most of the arguments here don't really stand up to scrutiny, at least not on a likelihood to happen basis.


for the most part, I agree, but it is harder than most can appreciate to program for every possible eventuality. In so many ways, an automated truck would be safer than a human, but, that one time it mistakes a small child, escaped from parental custody for a quick moment, darting in front of the truck for a tumbleweed....or whatever.....

From what I have read, it is harder to develop an autonomous vehicle turned loose on the streets and highways than it is a fully functional pilotless airplane, capable of gate to gate service. In fact, except for the maneuvering from runway, to/from gate we have had pilotless capable commercial aircraft for many years. The only place it gets a little hairy is on the ground!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DanWi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2019 at 10:13pm
SO what happens with these computer driven trucks when they lose signal or get sensors telling them to shut down or like the the computer in the house it freezes up and you just have to shut it off and reset it. Will we have a dead truck sitting in the middle of the interstate with no way to override and move it out of the way? I have heard people say with newer farm tractors the transmissions can lock in park with no way to move them if they experience a problem. Good thing we have old tractors that can still be moved.
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My company service truck has anti-lock brakes and 'dynamic stability control'.  It also has tire pressure monitoring.

That means, when I'm driving, and wheel speed sensors, the suspension position sensors, and the onboard computer's gyro suspect that something isn't right, the computer takes control and attempts to apply JUST ONE WHEEL's brake in order to put it 'back in a straight line'.

Now, it also has an absolute fit if I don't put the tires right at 80psi.  In our previous trucks, the sidewall spec was the same, but with more-or-less 'empty' trucks, we got rapid tread center wear at 80, and the handling was dangerous.  We dialed back to 55psi, and the wear issues went away, handing was perfect.

I dunno if any of you have experienced that, but when I'm driving down the county chip-and-seal road, there's spots where, between the empty truck, and those very highly inflated tires, one little bump will cause a tire to bounce a whole lot, which causes the truck to shake, triggering the Dynamic Stability Control... which abruptly applies a brake which steers you right into a ditch.  In my case, it was at 17mph, and fortunately, there was no traffic, no pedestrians, and no farm animals, and the ditch was gentle... a little tug from the neighbor's Chevy got my helpless 2wd 3/4t pickup back under it's own power.

Here's a thought for all to consider:

What if, in the process of a normal drive, a pothole triggered the aforementioned system, taking control of the vehicle and runs over a schoolchild...  

I have driven for three and a half decades, and NEVER had a bump or pothole cause me to lose control of a vehicle, yet now, I'm very forcefully taken out of control, and yet, being behind the wheel, would still be held responsible for something that THE VEHICLE's COMPUTER does.

It is my firm opinion that ANY system that takes away MY control of the vehicle, transfers all liability of damage, from that moment onward, to the hands of the manufacturer of the vehicle, and to the government entity that mandated the system's authority to override the driver's capacity.

Next:

Driverless vehicles.  A technology-worshipping individual will argue on behalf of the sensors, connectivity, and computational velocity of a 'system', but will do everything to hide from one basic fact:

EVERY technologic device has it's weaknesses.  As charged, a human driver can exhibit poor rationale in operation.  An electronic machine is no different, and while some will argue that it is 'more predictable' or 'more reliable' than a human, the machine has some very serious weaknesses:

1)  It's breakdowns occur in very minute orders... a bit lost, or a byte corrupted, a E2PROM memory register 'burned' to the point of unreliable state, a board-level brownout event caused by an ESD-weakened MOSFET, an ignition coil with failing insulation on a wet day... and problems with a hall-effect sensor fouled with rust... and neither the computer, nor it's maintainer can recognize the loss of capacity.

A Human, even if they don't understand the intricacy of all the operations going on underhood, or on the road, knows when SOMETHING HAS CHANGED.  A Human doesn't need special sensors to detect a loss of coolant into the passenger compartment, or onto the road behind...

2) A computer may be able to get up-to-the-second travel information via a network connection, but... it can not smell coolant leaking from the car ahead.  It cannot look at it's sensors and see that some machine spilled oil onto the pavement on the last 60 feet of the exit ramp.  It cannot look at the bridges ahead and see that cross-winds have frozen a strip of ice across the right lane, but not the left.

The computer cannot look off into the ditch and decide to forget about trying to stop, but instead, release the brakes and steer for a soft place to land.

A computer does not have 'intuition'... it cannot recognize the difference between 'good data', 'bad data', and 'questionable data', because it doesn't see the accidents along the side of the road, or read newspaper stories, or see blood and gore on evening news.

The computer cannot 'see the future', it can only see the present, and a small fragment of the past.

When a human drives, the human looks into the future, and sees the weather, the road, the changing circumstances, and they know, using sensors FAR ADVANCED from the computers we have... they make effective decisions LONG before any other technology is even aware of the circumstances... and they can do it when a tire goes flat, or the wheel is missing, or the tie-rod end has broken off, or a wheel gets jammed by a piece of truck tire, or a deer is running across a field on the right.

Computers cannot think, they can only follow instruction coding written by someone who's sitting in a chair, looking at a screen.  In that respect, the 'driverless' vehicle, is one that is piloted by someone who isn't there, doesn't know, and has nothing at stake.
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Lou, Dave, I agree. And Dave, I’d bet you’re an excellent driver who understands all that’s going on.

The interesting dichotomy is that while it eliminates idiot distracted dangerous drivers it also eliminates the good drivers that can do things better than the system could.

Then it would come down to statistics: when all is considered, do less tragic things happen or do more? No different than currently. An “autonomous” vehicle gets in a wreck like the one that just hit the police car and it’s painted all over the news and Spurs hundreds of discussions like this one. Meanwhile 1000’s of human drivers had accidents either by being distracted or they were looking at the kids on the right side of the road while a kid from the left ran out or something mechanical or road conditions related happened and that driver didn’t know how to cope. Right now it’s hard to compare because of the very different amount of each type of vehicle.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a proponent. It’s just an interesting topic to think about both ways.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2019 at 6:42am
This reminds me of the trailer type dump truck driver that caused 10s of MILLONS in damage to the Hamilton Skyway bridge and 'commuter chaos' a few years ago. The drunk essentially got off,BTW.
The cause.. he left the dump box UP for several miles ,finally hitting the bridge.
What I shook my head at is that a SIMPLE $20 switch could have prevented the carnage HE created.
I know you 'can't fix stupid'  BUT you can slow him down a tad....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2019 at 6:59am
jay, a local man who was one of my scout leaders when I was a lad was a highway construction worker.  Back in those days, crew could/would ride in the back of a truck.  He was in the back of the truck and the driver left the hydraulics in gear.  Due to valve bleed or whatever, the box was raising ever so slowly as he was going down the road.  This guy crawled up to the top/front, trying for all his might to get the driver's attention before he dumped the crew on the road at highway speed.  He got high enough that the top half of his head got sheared off on the bottom of an overpass.  I know there's good truck drivers.  But as a group, they seem to think their 5h!t don't stink, and I know otherwise!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ac fleet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2019 at 2:18pm
The govt. is backing driverless chit because it is their way of population control!--Anything without a driver is a bomb! ---Granted there are drivers on the road that have no business being there. Both truck and car, and don't forget them damn motorcycles!
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