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Codger 
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 Topic: Tractor Brakes:
Posted: 10 May 2025 at 5:57am |
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My White tractor has service brakes which work well but when you are almost stopped but not quite, the brakes emit a sound and the tractor tends to shake just a bit. I have no books myself other than the owners manual but the single source I've been able to locate shows these service brakes to be "wet". However, drilling down further these service brakes seem to be like dozer steering clutches requiring many friction, and many steel, or separator discs? There are six friction discs, and four steel, or separator discs per side. Is this a common setup? I've not seen it in the past on tractors myself. I have checked the oil in both sides and it is full to the threads of the monitoring ports so they are lubricated.
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Codger
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Posted: 10 May 2025 at 6:03am |
Here is a photo. Reference #7 is the friction discs, reference #8 is the steel, or separator discs. Set up much like an automatic transmission but manually applied.
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JoeM(GA)
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Cumming,GA
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Posted: 10 May 2025 at 6:04am |
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very common these days, Ford started using it on the 4000 and larger in 1965, most others followed right behind them. They are a very robust braking system. I know my Ford backhoe is kinda picky about its hydraulic fluid, they tend to chatter if cheap oil is used. I don’t know how oil your machine is, but it may be coming up on brake time, they last a long time, but not forever
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Allis Express North Georgia
41 WC,48 UC Cane,7-G's,
Ford 345C TLB
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Codger
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Posted: 10 May 2025 at 6:26am |
 JoeM(GA) wrote:
very common these days, Ford started using it on the 4000 and larger in 1965, most others followed right behind them. They are a very robust braking system. I know my Ford backhoe is kinda picky about its hydraulic fluid, they tend to chatter if cheap oil is used. I don’t know how oil your machine is, but it may be coming up on brake time, they last a long time, but not forever |
Thanks kindly. I believe the tractor was built in 1984 but could be 1983. "Chatter" is a good word to use. Under it yesterday afternoon for the first time it appears quite a job to remove the housings these are installed within. I've been compiling a parts list and will run into the dealership I help out this morning as they are a AGCO dealer. Planning to keep this one so well worth a brake job if needed.
Thanks again,
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Codger
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Posted: 10 May 2025 at 11:46am |
Talked to the original owner of my tractor, second owner, and myself, (I do that far too often) and all the fluids were changed just prior to my purchase when the tractor was traded in on a new New Holland with a cab. All fluids came from Farm & Fleet which is a local retail farm supply store.
Following up on this I called the implement dealer I help out and they have the needed friction modifier that needs to be in the oil if not using the AMBRA branded oil New Holland specifies. The brakes friction material appears to be a composite of sintered bronze and this is very common to happen in older limited slip differentials if a friction modifier is not incorporated. Original owner rarely ever used the brakes as the tractor was used in a specified task and was not subjected to a lot of need for brake application. Second owner never did anything with the brakes at all so my assumption is they are original to the tractor. Implement dealer has the additive on the shelf so I need to ascertain quantity required and make purchase. Think I have found the correct manual from an online source but I really need a service manual for the file.
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tbran
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Posted: 10 May 2025 at 12:02pm |
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It sounds like I made this up, but, we had issues with fork lifts that used brake system like this and chatter was a good description (Ford). We called Allis construction service and an engineer told me " a few years ago this issue evolved, we traced the issue as to the elimination of sperm whale organic oil as an ingredient in the oil. Drain the oil, go get some castor oil and pour a quart of it in with new oil." (I told him that he expected me to tell the customer his brakes chattering due to the fact we can't hunt sperm whales ? -get real) Son of a gun - fixed all the issues. Massey Ferguson sells or did sell "Anti Chatter" additive! Some said it didn't work but it did only if one changes the oil. Worked on 6140 AC's as well - but if water contaminated oil was left in too long it swelled the brakes and we had to turn down the 'floater' plates, then reused all the old components - with new oil and anti- chatter fluid.
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When told "it's not the money,it's the principle", remember, it's always the money..
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Codger
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Posted: 10 May 2025 at 12:13pm |
The sperm whale oil thing has been around since the 1970's in the automotive world. Probably true as the term "Save the Whales" came about then.
The product I referenced is an AGCO product. I've never heard of adding castor oil myself.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 10 May 2025 at 12:54pm |
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sounds like the same problem in pickup trucks with LS units that dont have any Friction Modifier in the oil... I always bought a 7 oz tube at Auto Zone and added to the gear lube when i did a truck rear axle ( with a limit slip unit)..
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Codger
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Posted: 11 May 2025 at 9:14am |
This subject got me to thinking so now have a better understanding of how these brakes actually work. I really couldn't envision how each side had six 7/8" steel balls in the brake system. By dissecting the literature I've had access to, I now see the apparatus and can see how it functions. I can also see the wear points over time in the system.
Switching gears just a bit, my pto engagement also has what I could consider "chatter" for a brief second till it comes up to speed. There is a clutch on this thing with several friction, and steels incorporated. Pretty ingenious really in the design, but I'd wager this would also benefit from the oil additive. I think the sumps are separate, but the same oil went into both reservoirs. There are two different drain plugs and separate fill ports. The warning label of the panel states to engage firmly and without delay, (something to that verbiage). I don't just "shove" it in, but rather smoothly apply pressure to the handle. This is the only tractor I've owned with a "live, or independent" PTO, and all the others I've operated are electric engaged, so rather violent in nature. Last year during harvest I ran an auger for my cousin who is biased with JD and his 4020 has a very smooth engaging manual PTO under load, so that is the only real reference I have for comparison.
Slow learning to what is very common I'm sure in the AG world. Not a tractor mechanic myself unless something is broke.
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Codger
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Posted: 11 May 2025 at 1:34pm |
Further "drilling down" into this tractor shows there is a single sump with three drain plugs with two being in the lower points of the driveline casting(s). Each side of the drive axle housings also have drain plugs. I sent off an electronic correspondence request to a gear vendor and received a nice, informative reply upon how much concentration of their "Friction Modifier" formula to use per quart of 80W-90 gear lube to eliminate the "chatter" in both the PTO clutch, and service brakes. Though they don't know farm tractors, they do know differentials and the respective clutches used very well, and the assumption is made many of the materials used are similar.
Digging through my files I have found the list of replaceable filters, and elements provided me by the original owner through the second owner. Many of the filtration elements are cleanable in the solvent tank. Now armed with much more information than just a couple of days past, I'll fully service the tractor this next week.
Thanks for reading and assistance.
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Codger
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Posted: 12 May 2025 at 12:16pm |
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Implement dealer has the needed additive. I have the manual on order for the tractor so when it arrives I will know capacities of the respective sump(s) to get this installed in the correct quantity. From the lable it is very high in chemical content that is detrimental to bronze/brass and you really want to be careful to not overdose.
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Codger
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Posted: 18 May 2025 at 12:52pm |
Just over 11 gallons of 75W-90 gear lube in both drive axles and transmission total. Almost 45 quarts if looking at it that way. Drained oil(s) into clean containers to measure quantity and then mixed four ounces of the additive per quart in the drive axles, and two ounces per quart in the transmission because of the friction clutch basket for the independent PTO. After running the tractor around a bit the brakes are much better as far as chatter. Gone is the brake lockup just before coming to a full stop. The PTO engagement is now very linear and smooth without chatter at all.
Seems this was a good thing to address. The drain oil was reused but I did run it through my filtration cart just to ensure nothing was in that shouldn't be. I did clean the filter cartridge/screen for the transmission as that is external and easily accessed. Nothing in it to speak of at all.
Edited by Codger - 18 May 2025 at 12:53pm
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Codger
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Posted: 23 May 2025 at 4:25am |
Talked to the prior owner yesterday on the phone and gave him an update of what I'd found. He'd changed the oil for the same reasons I was experiencing but he said was experiencing severe brake lockup upon light application. The oil used was 75W-90 from Blain's Farm and Fleet, (private branded). Reading literature online I cannot locate the oil cited as having the extreme pressure additives, or friction modifiers included for limited slip differential operation, nor wet brake application usage.
In short, the oil used was seemingly incorrect for the application. Though improving in performance in this application with an additive package, I'm going to drain and change to a more proper lubricant. Certainly cannot hurt at all. Really like the old tractor and it does everything I ask of it, so plan to take care of it best I can.
Edited by Codger - 23 May 2025 at 4:27am
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Codger
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Posted: 29 May 2025 at 5:50am |
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Did a bit of mowing with the tractor on Friday evening. Gone is the brake chatter and lockup just before coming to a stop completely. Pto engagement is very smooth and linear in operation now. Still planning to change the fluids completely as have the appropriate product on hand but think I'll run this oil another 10 hours, (two mowings) before changing to serve as a "flush" to the system. I'll then evaluate the drain oil with my filter cart and analysis to ascertain any wear to internal parts.
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