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PaulB 
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Rocky Ridge Md
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 Topic: New D17 puller build
Posted: 12 Jul 2024 at 2:17pm |
 DanWi wrote:
They will start checking your rpm's when you beat them😉 |
Nothing takes the fun out of pulling more than a bunch of Grampa gear pullers that can't win, so they want to whip you with the rule book or make rules that favor whatever they're pulling, or they just come flat out and tell you that you're not welcome at their pulls. Due to all of the above I gave up playing their grampa gear game decades ago. I build a tractor how I want to and run it the way it was built to run. After seriously looking I've found more places to pull than I ever had with the grampa gear whiny-hineys. I have a 5500 pound tractor pushing 20mph true ground speed, this is as much fun as the multi engine modifieds I pulled in the 70s & 80s.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits.
If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY
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DrAllis
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Posted: 12 Jul 2024 at 10:35am |
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30 or more years ago, Perkins/Massey made a diesel piston that had a fairly typical "mexican hat" and then four more "mini-mexican hats" that each injector hole sprayed into. Looked pretty neat, but didn't last long and they dropped it. I imagine they had aluminum cracking issues with all the intricate machine work done to the piston top.
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NEVER green
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Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Location: MN.
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Posted: 12 Jul 2024 at 9:33am |
Since there is no combustion chamber in the head, you are not creating swirl and good squish, like a diesel put the combustion chamber in the piston.
Hemi is best for nitro, heart or figure eight shaped is great for gas, pent roof is best.
I have seen figure eight shaped chambers in a couple of alcohol SS tractor pistons.
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2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040 R50
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DrAllis
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Posted: 11 Jul 2024 at 3:26pm |
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I've always felt the "Power Crater" bowl design must make some more HP per cubic inch or A-C would have stayed with flat tops like the WC/WD had. When I had custom pistons made by Ross, they always had a Power Crater bowl. I will say this: A flat top piston that has 10 or 11 or 12 to 1 compression will make more power than a Power Crater piston that is only 8.0 to 1 compression ratio.
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DanWi
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Joined: 18 Sep 2009
Location: wttn
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Posted: 11 Jul 2024 at 3:15pm |
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They will start checking your rpm's when you beat them😉
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CAL(KS)
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Joined: 18 Sep 2009
Location: Chapman, KS
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Posted: 10 Jul 2024 at 7:06am |
flat tops will work and are simpler, but there are several here who say the dished are better and have switched back to them. i dont have the experience to comment on it, really only getting started in pulling myself. My brother bought some parts to build a pretty economical 293 from an experienced puller who frequented this forum. Farmall H rods and chevy pistons @4.155 (4 1/8 sleeve bored 30 over) and a 5.4 crank. I dont recall the compression height of the piston but it was on off the shelf variety. Unfortunately life happened and its yet to be built...
Edited by CAL(KS) - 10 Jul 2024 at 7:06am
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Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20
Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Thymansrepairandcust
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Location: Cameron, WI
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Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 5:57pm |
I just seen that they do custom work. Ill have to check them out. Would flattops be better than dished?
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DrAllis
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Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 3:46pm |
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Ross Pistons will make them. Done business with them for many years. You have to know what you want and give them the info.
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Thymansrepairandcust
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Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 3:39pm |
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Okay so maybe ill keep an eye out and talk to a few of my local guys. Otherwise custom pistons wouldn't be the worst thing if I could find someone willing to do it. Ill just have to get measurements and all that as far as piston pin size and location.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 3:31pm |
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There is a piston out there that can be made to work. It is an M & W brand 4 1/8" piston for a WC/WD engine and it is in a kit labeled SP-46. They need to have the top lip machined off .170". They will make 240 psi of compression. They are not made anymore. Finding used might be a possibility. Having custom pistons made is also a possibility. Until you get a piston that will make great compression everything else doesn't matter.
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Thymansrepairandcust
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Posted: 09 Jul 2024 at 12:30pm |
Do you have any info on what pistons would work with that to get the increased compression. I thought I had read about someone using big block chevy pistons. Also had read about flat tops from a WD Or WD45 that needed some meat taken off the top so it doesnt smack the head. Im not opposed to having someone machine pistons to fit the application. As far as cams go. Is the stock cam sufficient or is there a better grind that would keep the valves open a little longer to squeeze more fuel/air into the chambers? Is there room in the head for bigger valves? Or is the stock valve configuration good enough? Pistons is kinda my starting point once I get it pulled in the garage at the end of season. But if im gonna get things machined Id like to drop it all off at one time. Thanks again
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DrAllis
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Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 5:16pm |
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D-17 rods are fine if you get pistons to get compression where you want it. Using the D-19 rods gains you 20 more cubic inches. I just did a quick calculation on compression ratios and those 8.0 to 1 flat tops would only be 7.5 to 1 with the shorter D-19 rods, so that won't work. With stock crank and rods you need a piston with 2.550" to 2.600" compression height to get 11.3 to 12.0 to 1 compression ratio.
Edited by DrAllis - 08 Jul 2024 at 5:21pm
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Thymansrepairandcust
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Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 5:08pm |
Okay ill definitely have to check for availability of parts. And as for pulling yes to an extent. Antique class with a speed limit at most places. Some places have a rpm limit of 20% over stock. But that's not really watched. Usually biggest thing they check is drawbar height and length which I have already built the hitch and is legal.
Are there any other rods that would be workable without turning down the crank? OR would the stock D17 rods be okay to use just by getting taller pistons and bigger bore size? I know I have read a little on pistons that are available but unsure on the specs or what to use. This is definitely a new realm than I'm used to that's why I want to be sure that I'm getting all the info that I can get.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 4:58pm |
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Rod journal on the crank gets taken from 2.375" down to 2.000" offset grind. Stroke goes from 4.500" to 4.875". D-19 rods will need new wrist pin bushings to accept the .990" pin that 4 1/8" pistons have. The pin will need "buttons" to keep it in place or make the .990 a press fit into the conn rod. D-19 pins are 1.000" diameter. Make sure you can get rod bearings for those D-19 rods before you get too deep. Are you "Antique" pulling with RPM limits ??
Edited by DrAllis - 08 Jul 2024 at 4:59pm
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Thymansrepairandcust
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Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 4:29pm |
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What is all involved in putting D19 Rods in? Im guessing same piston pin diameter. Crank Bearings the same size? Or are they smaller? Getting the crank reground wouldnt be hard with the shops I have here. OR does it need offset ground for more stroke? I do have access to a variety of D17 and D19 parts from a local guy. Im new to the tractor world as far as it goes. thanks for your help
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DrAllis
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Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 3:28pm |
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4 1/8" bore sleeves are a drop-in with zero machine work. Finding taller pistons for more compression is the challenge. You can use D-19 connecting rods and have the crankshaft re-ground to a 3/8" more stroke doing this. This will make it 260 cubes. Possibly if you get 8.0 to 1 flat top pistons with the sleeves as a kit, the compression will go up some, but the D-19 rods are 1/8" shorter, but with an extra 3/8" stroke I'd think compression will still be higher than 8.0 to 1. 10 or 12 to 1 would be even better.
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Thymansrepairandcust
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Posted: 08 Jul 2024 at 2:55pm |
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Okay so bear with me. I have a series 1 D17 that I'm setting up for pulling. Right now it's running strong but I will be splitting tractor this fall after this season is done. It had sat for many years so the seals are all dry and it's leaking from front and rear crank. I figured while it's apart I want to build up the motor. I'm not opposed to anything. I am willing to run 110 if needed. Basically I'd like more compression for more power. I have access to machine shops and can do most of the machine work.
I've been searching the forums and reading all the info I can. I'm coming from the diesel truck pulling world which has grown too much for me to become competitive. But we have a great group of antique tractor pullers.
I pulled it last weekend at our local gas and steam clubs annual pull and didn't do too bad but my right rear rim spun out. Of course when I inspected the tractor before hand I overlooked the rim lock that was still sitting on my bench. Whoops.
As far as the motor goes. I'm looking for a good reliable combo. If I gotta regrind crank for different rods I can. What pistons and sleeves would get a good bump in compression? Are there any suggestions for valves? Sizes ect. Porting of the stock head? Cam regrind? Or does a stock Cam perform well? I'm open to all suggestions. I've read about different carbs. From a D19 to a glenenor carb. I will attach a AFR gauge to aid in tuning and I do have access to a dyno if needed.
Thank you for any help.
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