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ElementalEarth 
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 Topic: 79004867 Alternator, Delco Voltage Regulation
Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 11:58am |
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Hi folks, I'm looking into repairing my electrical system. I was wondering if it's worth it to switch to electronic voltage regulator? Right now there is a mechanical regulator on the tractor. 3 wires coming out of the alternator, not sure which electronic voltage regulator would fit for this alternator and how to wire it up?
I currently have 4 wires coming out of the mechanical regulator, 2 from alternator, 1 going to ignition and 1 to battery side of starting solenoid. This is according to the schematic for a AC 170 gas.
How do I change it to electronic regulators, I have seen several possibilities out there, not even sure which voltage regulator works for my alternator. The electronic models all seem to just send out 1 wire, where does this hook up to ? And what about the other wires that now need a new place in the schematic?
It's a little confusing, mainly because my lack of knowledge or experience.
I do have a new mechanical voltage regulator handy that I will hookup in case I can't figure it out.. It's easy to follow the factory schematic and copy it, but I'd like to maybe improve upon the functioning of the electrical system and maybe introduce some stabler voltages and perhaps less malfunctions ? :)
Thanks for reading all of this! Any tips are welcome! The alternator model is 79004867 and i'm currently using a 70243986 voltage regulator (D635)
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DanielW
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 12:24pm |
Most of the time when people talk about going to single wire or simpler regulators, they're talking about changing to a 1 wire, internally-regulated, self-exciting alternator. They're very common, available anywhere, and pretty much all based off the Delco 10SI internally-regulated alternators that GM used, so the case size is pretty standard for all of them. They're also such a common conversion for any old car/truck/tractor/power-unit, that many places make aftermarket brackets for many engines/vehicles that will allow it to be a bolt-on, plug-and-play scenario. Even if the brackets aren't available, it's usually pretty easy to modify the old bracket or make a new bracket that works with the new alternator. A fair bit of of old equipment used Delco alternators anyway, so often the case size matches, even if the original alternator wasn't internally-regulated.
When you put one on, you just wire the single wire to the positive side of the battery and make sure it's got a decent ground connection (assuming negative ground, which your 170 will be). Theoretically there should be an in-line fuse wired in the wire, but lots of folks ignore that. Your old regulator (and all its associated wires) isn't used at all.
I see you're in Canada. If you're anywhere close to South/Central Ontario, one of the best auto-electric shops I've found is Allen's Auto Electric in Oshawa. It's a small, hole-in-the-wall shop, but they're superb at testing, fixing, or sourcing any charging or starting component you could imagine, and at very fair prices. They'll definitely have single wire, internally-regulated alternators in stock, and I'd bet they could also test or rebuild your existing alternator and regulator pretty easily. I once took an alternator to them the day before Christmas in a panic because it was for a car that was going to be used for a 2 week Christmas vacation and the alternator died that morning. They rebuilt it on the spot for me and gave me a discount because they didn't have time to do the full stripping/painting they normally would. They also sourced a generator with the oddball tach drive for an old Fordson that no one else could.
Edited by DanielW - 22 Dec 2023 at 12:45pm
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DanielW
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 1:22pm |
Further to above: For some single wire alternator conversions, your charge light on your dash won't register that it's charging, because it's usually triggered off one of the charge/excitation wires leading to the old voltage regulator. Most folks don't worry about it: Once you do the conversion, check the voltage while running (usually you have to rev it up a bit to trigger the excitation). If it's charging, chances are you'll never have to touch it again. Disconnect the charge indicator light and carry on. Or if you want to, you can run the charge light though a simple relay.
Before you do anything, take the cover off your regulator (if possible. If it's ever been replaced with an aftermarket regulator that might not be possible). See if the contact tabs are exposed/accessible. If they are, gently take some fine emery cloth or a points file to the contact tabs of your existing mechanical regulator. Sometimes al they need is a quick clean-up. You can also adjust the old ones as well, but not always (Most 6V mechanical regulators are adjustable, but I'd say only about half the 12V ones are, and no aftermarket ones are). Adjusting them is a bit more of a finicky procedure, however.
As I'm sure you know, you should be reading 14.4V when it's charging and rev'd up a bit. Anything over 13.6V is probably good enough. Anything 15V or higher is too much and will burn something up (most folks recommend a narrower window of acceptable charge voltage, but that's what I use).
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 1:36pm |
Would a voltmeter or ammeter still work with a single wire alternator? I suppose I can wire it to that and from there to the rest of the system, no ? just going based off a 170 gas wiring schematic.
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DanielW
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 1:50pm |
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Both would/could work if wired correctly. The Ammeter would need to be wired in-line with the charge wire. Better/simpler otpion is to use a volt meter - that's what most folks do. For the volt meter connections, just pick up your negative from ground and your positive from the key switch 'on' position. You can pick up a voltmeter that'll work just dandy for less thatn $25 - just make sure to get one the same diameter as your current ammeter so it goes in the same hole on the dash.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 2:16pm |
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The "NEW" alternators all have internal voltage regulation.. THere are basically TWO version, the 1 wire and the 2/3 wire . You can use either. Its a preference if you like one above the other... New alternators can be basically the same size as original DELCO 10SI... or you can get a smaller version with the DELCO CS130 , or DENSO MINI.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 2:24pm |
Here is a 1 wire alternator based on the 10SI. your should look a lot like this. Yours is probably a 35 amp version... I think this one actually has a TACH stud also.... some do / some dont.. Personally i prefer the 3 wire CS130 alternator, but its all preference...... AMAZON
Edited by steve(ill) - 22 Dec 2023 at 2:27pm
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 4:48pm |
One wires are fine, but they don't cut it on Tractors. Most one wire Alternators need 1200-1400 rpm to "excite" the regulator to start the charging process. If you Tractor is one of the older units like a WD or WC, you're much better off wiring the Tractor to a three wire system. With the three wire system, there's no need to rev the snot outta' the engine to get the charging system going. With wiring a three wire unit, once the engine is started, the charging starts at around 450-500 rpm. Much easier on the older engine. I always tell my Tractor customer's to leave the one wires to Automobiles and Hotrods. There is a lot of information on my website about one wires vs 3 wires systems. Also, if you decide to move to an "SI" series Alternator, its' alway a good idea to run a Voltmeter. Much safer. There is also information on my website about Voltmeters as well. I also build 12V conversion kits and offer upgrade systems as well. HTH Steve@B&B bb-customcircuits.com
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 5:04pm |
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Interesting, are these the CS130 alternators you mention? How does one wire the 3 wire ones up?
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jaybmiller
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 5:14pm |
I had/had CS130s on all 4 of my D-14s. One had a resistor ,two had 'idiot lights', can't member what #4 had..... Troy, #1, here has the 'idiot light'. I like it best as it comes on when key is turned, goes off when tractor revs up. Will look tomorrow as to HOW it's wired, weather permitting.
I prefer an ammeter, in series between battery and alternator as it shows CURRENT going in or out of the battery. Heck one D-14 had both ammeter and voltmeter !
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DrAllis
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 6:14pm |
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Switching from the OEM alternator causes you to LOSE your tachometer. There are solid state voltage regulators that work with that old Delco alternator and they work quite well.
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 6:39pm |
If you NEED a tach ... pick an alternator that has that capability... Steves summary of a 3 wire alternator is spot on.. I also prefer that... NOTE that there might be some MODIFICATION to the mounting bracket needed to mount SOME alternators... or realign to get the pulley / belt right..
i use a Resistor instead of an IDIOT LIGHT... either is OK..some also use a diode.
Edited by steve(ill) - 22 Dec 2023 at 6:40pm
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 6:54pm |
 DrAllis wrote:
Switching from the OEM alternator causes you to LOSE your tachometer. There are solid state voltage regulators that work with that old Delco alternator and they work quite well. |
That would be an option indeed, currently the tach is not working alas like every other part. It would be great to have the option to. I did see more modern alternators that do have the tach gear on it aswell, but may require modification to work with the older system, correct? Any recommendation on a solid state regulator?
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 6:58pm |
steve(ill) wrote:
If you NEED a tach ... pick an alternator that has that capability... Steves summary of a 3 wire alternator is spot on.. I also prefer that... NOTE that there might be some MODIFICATION to the mounting bracket needed to mount SOME alternators... or realign to get the pulley / belt right..
i use a Resistor instead of an IDIOT LIGHT... either is OK..some also use a diode.
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The way the wiring is currently setup,there is a resistor already there before the coil and distributor.. so very little adjustments may be needed then? Do you use diodes in your wiring like the person in the video below shows? https://youtu.be/HXqp2Aef-0k?si=uZLA_3UNW06NP6rW
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 7:07pm |
The DIODE or RESISTOR or IDIOT light goes in the SIGNAL WIRE #1 in the diagram.. It stops FEEDBACK when the engine is not running, and drops the voltage slightly to get the alternator to KICK IN at a lower RPM........ YES, the You Tube is a version of that.
There should not be a resistor in the line to the COIL / Distributor... That normally is to drop voltage when using a 12v battery in an old 6 v system....... SOME Autos also used a resistor on the line WHEN RUNNING to cut the voltage to the distributor .. but ran 12v DIRECT when cranking to get a hotter spark to START....
Your on the right track..
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 7:09pm |
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I would not be looking at a EXTERNAL REGULATOR in this day and age... Thats very OLD technology... The new INTERNAL REG Alternators are a good upgrade.
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 8:03pm |
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Thanks for the info folks, i've been staring at alternators all day, learned a lot, more confused also haha by all the choices to consider.
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 8:33pm |
ElementalEarth wrote:
Thanks for the info folks, i've been staring at alternators all day, learned a lot, more confused also haha by all the choices to consider.
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If your existing alternator and wiring harness are in good shape, the cheapest and easiest solution is to simply replace the regulator with a suitable modern unit.
If your wiring harness is in need of replacement and you don't mind the expense then a full upgrade may be the better choice.
I still have mechanical regulators that work just fine too.
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Codger
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Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 8:50pm |
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I still have the original 10DN series industrial alternator on my 11B. Full fielding it proved the alternator to be good but the external voltage regulator was burnt up internally. I replaced the external regulator with a unit from DB Electrical and the charging system works as it should. However, I've purchased a much newer 33SI series to replace this old technology and have additional amperage available as lighting is to be installed. The original is only 20A output but the system is 24VDC. The new alternator is 100A and still a 24VDC unit.
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A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
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DSeries4
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Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 8:57am |
Les Kerf wrote:
ElementalEarth wrote:
Thanks for the info folks, i've been staring at alternators all day, learned a lot, more confused also haha by all the choices to consider.
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If your existing alternator and wiring harness are in good shape, the cheapest and easiest solution is to simply replace the regulator with a suitable modern unit.
If your wiring harness is in need of replacement and you don't mind the expense then a full upgrade may be the better choice.
I still have mechanical regulators that work just fine too.
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x2. Quick and easy. You are just making more work for yourself.
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 10:07am |
In my 12V wiring system kits, I offer the diode, the charging light, or a resistor. Whatever the customer wants I build into the system. The light is nice if you have the room in the instrument panel on the early Tractors. The "D" series Tractors on up have plenty of room to put a light if you wanted one. (some already have one)
If you have a one wire Alternator, most one wires can be changed over to a three wire system. If you visit my website, there is a lot of info on the different Alternators that are used on conversions. Makes a good read. Most of the information I supply on my website I supplied in Automotive magazines years ago. The Tractors are no different. The 12V negative ground system works the same on everything. Doesn't matter what's its on. The three wire system is a BIG benefit to larger Tractors with more accessories mainly because you're using the "voltage sense" circuit to monitor current usage. If you read my articles on the website, it explains a lot about the different ways of wiring of designing a system for your particular application. For tach usage or hookup, the 10 "SI" or 17 "SI" T116 or 136 series Alternators are designed for tachometers. These normally have a 3 wire plug that plugs into them. One terminal is to 12 volts to turn on the VR, one is voltage sense, and the other is Tachometer signal through the Alternators Stator bridge just forward of the rectifier. As I mentioned, the 3 wire system is the way to fly. No revving the engine, no small pulleys, no Battery drainage, no low voltage issues, no components failures (due to low voltage) fast starts, and an even amount of power throughout the system and keeping the Battery "full" as well.. Don't forget to use a Voltmeter to monitor the system. Play it safe!
Steve@B&B
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 10:46am |
I think I'll test my current alternator and see if it is functioning. The battery was not charging, but that might have been due to the whole electrical system needing an overhaul. I'd like to keep my expenses somewhat limited as there are alot of other parts in need of replacing too, I have another topic going that talks about the general condition and current progress. It's an AC 170. I appreciate all the help on this forum, I don't think I could do this without you guys. I did find a #B8002-048, 1-Wire, 12-Volt Delco Voltage Regulator for 10DN Alternators on the Brillman site, it would be a step up from the big black voltage regulator box, no ? I would be able to just keep my current alternator, if it still functions properly that is. If the alternator should not be operational anymore, which is possible, I might invest a bit into a 3 wire internally regulated alternator, less parts to worry about and lots more benefits that come with more recent technology. I do wonder if I actually need to keep the tachometer drive, isn't there a way to install an aftermarket car tachometer that hooks up through the ignition coil or the distributor? Honestly the RPM is the least of my concerns right now, as I'd like to focus on the general functionality first. It would be wise to keep in mind if I do end up getting a different alternator to look for one with the tachometer stud at the back or something like that. I'm not really looking to restore the tractor, it's a tool that we use on the farm. So our priorities are, it needs to run good and smooth, needs to start all year, needs to be able to charge and potentially have lights that work.
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 1:06pm |
ElementalEarth wrote:
... isn't there a way to install an aftermarket car tachometer that hooks up through the ignition coil or the distributor?... |
Yes. Look for one that has a low rpm range though. I have one in my 74 F-350 that has a 4000 rpm dial that swings 270 degrees so the resolution is pretty decent, I got it many years ago from JC Whitney. A typical 10,000 rpm car tach would be about useless on a tractor.
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 1:11pm |
ElementalEarth wrote:
... our priorities are, it needs to run good and smooth, needs to start all year.... |
Do yourself a favor and get the Pertronix ignition setup to replace your breaker points.
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 3:22pm |
Les Kerf wrote:
ElementalEarth wrote:
... isn't there a way to install an aftermarket car tachometer that hooks up through the ignition coil or the distributor?... |
Yes. Look for one that has a low rpm range though. I have one in my 74 F-350 that has a 4000 rpm dial that swings 270 degrees so the resolution is pretty decent, I got it many years ago from JC Whitney. A typical 10,000 rpm car tach would be about useless on a tractor.
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Ah yes that makes sense,about the rpm's, thanks for the tip! lol
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 3:24pm |
Les Kerf wrote:
ElementalEarth wrote:
... our priorities are, it needs to run good and smooth, needs to start all year.... |
Do yourself a favor and get the Pertronix ignition setup to replace your breaker points.
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Great advice, should I be replacing the spark plug wires then as well with an electronic ignition? I will keep it in mind for the future. It's probably way easier to maintain ignition with newer systems and coils. To be honest, i'm on a budget so I have to choose which parts need replacing critically, but I might do this when funds come in again. :)
There's alot of stuff to replace, from simple hoses to wires and gaskets, rusted out gauges etc etc etc the list is long. Thanks for the advice though, appreciate it. Will add it to my list of things to do and improve upon
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ElementalEarth
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Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 11:27pm |
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I opened up the old voltage regulator today and to my surprise, the completely rusted out thing had a circuit board inside of it.
So it mustve been already replaced at some point.
Seems like mounting it on the side of the tractor wasn't the best spot. My solenoid keeps rusting aswell as we keep the tractor outside. Would it be possible to mount these where the battery is so that they are more protected from the rain ?
My main ground connection is also always rusty as it hooks up on the side of the tractor near the dashboard, there must also be a better spot for that, no?
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steve(ill)
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Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 8:38am |
you can mount them anywhere if your willing to modify the wireing to different locations. Another idea is to make a thin sheet metal side panel / cover to go over the components to shed the water. Leave it open on the bottom / back side so things can breath.
Not a good idea to wrap things tight with tarp or plastic, but some type of lean to or roof to shed the water and protect THAT side of the tractor would help.
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Steve in NJ
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Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 9:12am |
With the harsh weather you folks have up there, the best thing you could do is upgrade the system to an SI Altenator as we chatted about and get rid of the external VR all together. This would eliminate a lot of issues you would have. You didn't mention what model Tractor you have unless I missed it, but the B,IB,C, & CA model Tractors I have a kit to mount a VR or Starter Solenoid in the toolbox. This at least keeps the unit out of the rain. Still with the moisture and wet weather you folks have up there, it's rust city. It's close to what's around here as far as rust goes. As for cable grounding, clean a spot off on the Tractors torque tube or frame rail, make a good clean connection, and then smear some Dielectric grease over the connection. A better way would be to weld or bolt a stud to a good grounding area on the Tractor, slide a cable boot over the top of the cable, make your connection, add the Dielectric grease and then pull the boot down over the connection. The boot will keep water off the connection and keep the Dielectric grease intact on the connection. You should be good to go there. A little bit of extra work, but the end result would be well worth the time. Steve@B&B
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Les Kerf
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Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 9:40am |
ElementalEarth wrote:
... It's probably way easier to maintain ignition with newer systems and coils. To be honest, i'm on a budget ... |
Understood. I have upgraded several older engines by using a Ford TFI ignition triggered by the breaker points. Depending on your inclination/motivation there are inexpensive options. Check out www.gofastforless.com
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