This site is not affiliated with AGCO Inc., Duluth GA., Allis-Chalmers Co., Milwaukee, WI., or any surviving or related corporate entity. All trademarks remain the property of their respective owners. All information presented herein should be considered the result of an un-moderated public forum with no responsibility for its accuracy or usability assumed by the users and sponsors of this site or any corporate entity.
The Forum Parts and Services Unofficial Allis Store Tractor Shows Serial Numbers History
Forum Home Forum Home > Allis Chalmers > Construction and other equipment
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


3rd time a "Charm"???

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
Codger View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Location: Illinois
Points: 2059
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 3rd time a "Charm"???
    Posted: 21 Oct 2023 at 7:23am
Prior owner of my 11B tractor had the injection pump, (Roosa-Master, DC series) off the engine replacing the drive seals twice, and then the last time rebuilt and it still drowned the crankcase in fuel. This was prior to my ownership.

With just a few operating hours on the tractor I noticed the same thing happening again. I pulled the pump myself finding a seal compromised, (fuel pump side) once again. Examination of the brass sleeve showed nothing really to be concerned with so with new seals, and engine assembly lube liberally coating the seals and mating bore, I slid the pump back onto the splines. A few operating hours later, I notice the oil level growing again; rather profusely I might add too.

Once again I pulled the pump and this time sent it back into the fuel shop for evaluation. A couple of days later the fuel shop calls and not with the news I'd expected. The prior technician who rebuilt the pump originally was no longer employed there and the guy working with it this time tells me the brass sleeve is not any good, (via measurement) so it is now replaced. There is no charge for this as they've been in the loop since it was originally rebuilt but sure a pain in the backside. I'm going to reinstall the pump again either this afternoon, or tomorrow and hopefully this will be behind me.

The engine in this tractor sure runs and performs well but as many times as it's been drowned in diesel fuel, I'm certain there is no sludge buildup internally. I noticed this as the cold oil pressure was good, but rapidly decayed as the engine warmed. I check oil prior to starting work too and it gained a couple of gallons in the crankcase within an hour. The compromised seal was almost torn in half so a profuse leak internally right into the crankcase.   
A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Codger View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Location: Illinois
Points: 2059
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2023 at 6:10pm
Forgot to post this with the above post. From when the prior owner changed the seals and I pulled the pump to replace them again. It's not difficult to ascertain they are compromised:



Only diesel fuel was used for assembly lubricant with these seals.
A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
Back to Top
55allis View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Location: Griswold Iowa
Points: 701
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 55allis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2023 at 11:44am
Do you have the special tool to put those in the casting?
Looks to me you never used one…
1955 AC WD45 diesel with D262 repower, 1949 AC WD45
Back to Top
55allis View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Location: Griswold Iowa
Points: 701
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 55allis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2023 at 11:48am
I’d also use a heavier lubricant, like engine oil.
I’m just repeating what my local pump shop told me when I pulled the ones off my D262 (d19D) and 426 (d21).
1955 AC WD45 diesel with D262 repower, 1949 AC WD45
Back to Top
Codger View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Location: Illinois
Points: 2059
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2023 at 12:43pm
Yes, I have both the correct tools and knowledge to do this job correctly. The photo is not my failed install but rather the prior owners. This failure shown in the photo scarred the bore of the brass sleeve requiring replacement I believe. The pump is now reinstalled and the engine is going to get about 5 hours of idle time so I can maintain a vigil on it to see if it is growing in oil again.
A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
Back to Top
55allis View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Location: Griswold Iowa
Points: 701
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 55allis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2023 at 1:56pm
I hope the best for you!!!
I know how those pumps are very touchy and the umbrella seals are very tricky to get right, I try to keep an extra set just to be safe.
1955 AC WD45 diesel with D262 repower, 1949 AC WD45
Back to Top
Codger View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Location: Illinois
Points: 2059
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2023 at 4:06pm
No discernable level change to the engine oil at a medium idle speed over 3.5 hours so shut it down. All appears normal and will work with it some more tomorrow. I'd wager the problem is in the books for now. 

I also keep extra umbrella seals on hand. Think I have eight left as purchased two packs of 10 a couple of years ago. I used the seal collapsing tool to install the pump but did not use the expander to install the seals onto the driveshaft. The seals are plenty supple so used my fingers and engine oil. Plenty of lube and the pump went onto the engine almost effortlessly. Having changed all the engine oil filters and with none of the cartridges pre filled, I cranked the engine with the fuel shut off for 15 seconds. When the fuel was allowed the engine almost immediately came to life and oil pressure came right up to almost 80psi on the gauge. Once hot it is still carrying over 50psi at low idle speed and races to 75+ psi with an increase in engine rpm.

Going to allow a full cooldown and then retest tomorrow.

I have discovered one thing with working on this tractor and the contorted positions one much get into for access, and I sure ain't no teenager any more. Although I still fit between the track shoes and tractor body, it is rather difficult to get into, and out of the positions needed citing lack of room. Of course now I care a lot more about getting hurt than used to so more fully evaluate my surroundings rather than "Hold My Beer"!!! attitude.     
A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
Back to Top
steve(ill) View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81128
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2023 at 4:44pm
it is rather difficult to get into, and out of the positions needed citing lack of room. Of course now I care a lot more about getting hurt than used to so more fully evaluate my surroundings rather than "Hold My Beer"!!! attitude

Mike, the OLDER you get, the WORST it gets... Or MAYBE we just get SMARTER ?  Big smile
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
Back to Top
Codger View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Location: Illinois
Points: 2059
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2023 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by steve(ill) steve(ill) wrote:

it is rather difficult to get into, and out of the positions needed citing lack of room. Of course now I care a lot more about getting hurt than used to so more fully evaluate my surroundings rather than "Hold My Beer"!!! attitude

Mike, the OLDER you get, the WORST it gets... Or MAYBE we just get SMARTER ?  Big smile

I agree. Although it's been over 45 years I still fondly remember crawling all over these tractors when new to see what made them "tick". It was a lot easier then and bruises along with scrapes all healed. 

Now, I'd just as soon not get them in the first place..... 
A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
Back to Top
Codger View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Location: Illinois
Points: 2059
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Oct 2023 at 6:34pm
Ran engine another three hours today and no elevating level to the crankcase oil. No smell of diesel fuel that I could notice. 

Think this one can be put to bed finally. Informed the prior owner and he shares my enthusiasm with the apparent success.


Edited by Codger - 25 Oct 2023 at 6:50pm
A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
Back to Top
SteveM C/IL View Drop Down
Orange Level Access
Orange Level Access


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Shelbyville IL
Points: 8239
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2023 at 7:40am
When you have to count on others to perform a task,it really matters that they are competent. Hard to get that these days.
Back to Top
Codger View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 23 Dec 2020
Location: Illinois
Points: 2059
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2023 at 6:54am
Tony, (prior owner) asked if  I would accept $100.00 to offset my time to make this thing not leak. His reasoning is that he had just slipped the pump back onto the engine with new seals and not used the tractor before I'd purchased it. It was sold to me thinking it was repaired. We all make mistakes in life and I could have done the same thing easily myself.

Gesture sure is appreciated, but not necessary I told him.     
A career built on repairing and improving engineering design deficiencies, shortcomings, and failures over 50 years now.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.


Help Support the
Unofficial Allis Forum