| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Dale (Stonelick) 
Bronze Level
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Location: Stonelick, Ohio
Points: 179
|
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote  Reply
 Topic: B starting issues
Posted: 25 Aug 2023 at 11:52am |
It will not start with starter or with hand crank. The starter seems like it doesn't have enough power to turn engine. Hand cranking seems to have too much resistance to spin engine. It will start with pull start, but it pulls hard. Engine runs great, especially after boiling the carb.
After removing spark plugs, the starter will turn the engine easily. Could the problem be the rings or the valves? Would appreciate any suggestions or next steps.
The engine was seized when acquired several months ago, and got it freed up some with ATF soaking. Cleaned all the ground touch points (battery post, starter cone and casing). Checked all the electrical parts I could think of (new autolite 295 plugs, cleaned points and rotor [they and condenser looked new], borrowed the new coil and plug wires from my Allis C, bought new starter solenoid [old one was sticking open], recharged the new 6 volt battery, rebuilt starter from 2 old starters with new brushes and bushing) and rechecked the timing.
|
|
1951 CA - 1944 C - 1949 B - Kubota M6800
|
 |
|
Sponsored Links
|
|
|
JimD
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Mounds, OK
Points: 2112
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25 Aug 2023 at 12:14pm |
|
since you are running 6v are your battery cables 00 or larger?
|
Owner of OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central. We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81432
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 25 Aug 2023 at 12:36pm |
engine should roll over EASY by hand crank with spark plugs out.. Very little if any resistance... Since your motor was STUCK, you still might have some tight spots.... Pull start and load up the engine pulling a plow or disc, ect for a couple hours.....you might want to let it set and run at 1000 RPM for 30 minutes to loosen things up first... Dont be afraid to drain the oil and LOOK at it.. See if your getting any crud out.
Jims is right, 6v crank SLOW... But if you cant rotate by HAND its TIGHT.
Edited by steve(ill) - 25 Aug 2023 at 12:40pm
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
Dale (Stonelick)
Bronze Level
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Location: Stonelick, Ohio
Points: 179
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 26 Aug 2023 at 6:48pm |
JimD: yes, the battery cables are okay
Steve: yes, the engine turns easily with hand crank when plugs are out. I will try your suggestion of putting a load on the engine. Would it help or hurt if I first put some seafoam in the oil?
|
|
1951 CA - 1944 C - 1949 B - Kubota M6800
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81432
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 26 Aug 2023 at 6:54pm |
|
sea foam might help.... i dont know how long you have run the engine after breaking it loose.. Thats why i said you might want to let it set and run at 1000 RPM for a half your while you look it over and make sure all is well.... loading an engine and running for 1-2 hours is a standard way to break on in.. or loosen up old rings..... If there was crud inside due to setting, i would also change the oil after the break in.
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
DSeries4
Orange Level
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Points: 7342
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 Aug 2023 at 9:06am |
|
I agree with Steve. Since the engine was seized, there are still some rough spots in the cylinders. Not very good for the rings if you keep running it that way. I would hone the cylinders and put in new rings at minimum.
|
|
'49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080
|
|
Steve in NJ
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Andover, NJ
Points: 11833
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 28 Aug 2023 at 8:30am |
The first thing I would do is drop the pan and do an inspection of the bottom end. While you're there, clean out the oil pickup of any muck or sludge that might have accumulated in the pan or pickup tube. If it was stuck, there was probably water in it! An oil pan gasket is a Hell of a lot cheaper than a motor. Put new oil in it and then put it to work. At least in your mind you'll know it looks good downstairs, and it's clean inside with fresh oil as well......
Steve@B&B
|
|
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
|
|
Dale (Stonelick)
Bronze Level
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Location: Stonelick, Ohio
Points: 179
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Aug 2023 at 1:26pm |
steve(ill): ran the engine as suggested and then let pistons soak in sea foam afterwards. no change.
DSeries4: the engine turns smooth as silk without spark plugs (both with starter and with hand crank). Would rough spots on cylinder only be apparent when engine is under compression? Would a compression test (testing for excess compression) prove anything about the condition of the rings?
Steve in NJ: I unbolted oil pan, but could not drop it. Will need to remove WFE bolt and cut off a welded-on front tow bracket (see picture) to get the oil pan out.
When draining oil, did not notice any sludge, muck or water. I can see a little though the opening: did not notice any muck on pick up tube, bottom of oil pan, or underside of the engine. I could buy a endoscope camera to get a better look.
However, I might have to bite the bullet and remove the pan if I need to inspect/replace the rings(?)
Maybe first next step might be new gasket and oil change to see if that solves the problem(?) Maybe the engine just didn't like the old oil (the oil on the dip stick had always looked reasonably good). Should I use a special oil or would 10W30 (which I already have) be okay?
|
|
1951 CA - 1944 C - 1949 B - Kubota M6800
|
|
SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Shelbyville IL
Points: 8251
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Aug 2023 at 2:37pm |
|
My WD and 45 have lived on wallyworld 10w30 full synthetic for years. You should b OK I'd think.
|
|
Dale (Stonelick)
Bronze Level
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Location: Stonelick, Ohio
Points: 179
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Aug 2023 at 2:53pm |
Steve in NJ: Looking at JimD comment again about battery cable gauge. Mine has a 7/8" braided wire positive ground cable. Is this adequate for 6 volt?
Saw this ( https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241462) on the internet describing my same problem, so I ran a secondary 4 gauge wire from battery ground direct to the starter mounting bolt. It didn't help. Maybe I should try test with a heavier 6 volt gauge. However, that wouldn't solve the same hand crank problem.
Realize now that I will need to remove oil pan in order to scrape off the old gasket from pan and engine block.
|
|
1951 CA - 1944 C - 1949 B - Kubota M6800
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81432
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Aug 2023 at 4:24pm |
|
if it cranks easy with the starter and by hand crank with the PLUGS OUT.. then your probably OK with the motor INTERNAL at this point.. Fix the pan gasket and put in new 10w30 oil ..... Problem seems to be cranking with the PLUGS IN .... Possibly your not ovely familiar with the effort needed to crank a motor by hand ?? .... The ELECTRIC part is 6v is a SLOW CRANK... You need a GOOD STARTER and GOOD CABLES... , old starter motors normally are a little tired.. ( but you said the battery is new and the starter has been " built"..... I guess i would CLEAN the cable ends and battery clamps..not just wipe them off..sand paper the INSIDE of the battery clamps and wire brush the LUGS on cable ends and ground point... also wire brush inside the starter hole, thats its Ground.
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
steve(ill)
Orange Level Access
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: illinois
Points: 81432
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Aug 2023 at 4:27pm |
|
if you can get a compression gauge, measure the 4 cylinders.. It is POSSIBLE someone milled the head and increased compression to 6.5 - 7 to 1 ... that would explain why it cranks hard by hand and starter ........... but thats a LONG SHOT.. .... My "B" normally run right at 100 psi compression.
Edited by steve(ill) - 29 Aug 2023 at 4:28pm
|
|
Like them all, but love the "B"s.
|
|
Dale (Stonelick)
Bronze Level
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Location: Stonelick, Ohio
Points: 179
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Aug 2023 at 6:49pm |
Might be difficult to do a compression test without starter. Is using the hand crank is a 2 man job - one to crank and one to read? I think O'reilly's includes a compression test kit in their free tool loaner program.
Could a bad/frozen valve (either intake or exhaust) cause this starting issue?
|
|
1951 CA - 1944 C - 1949 B - Kubota M6800
|
|
Les Kerf
Orange Level
Joined: 08 May 2020
Location: Idaho
Points: 796
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Aug 2023 at 8:54pm |
 Dale (Stonelick) wrote:
... Is using the hand crank is a 2 man job - one to crank and one to read? ...
Could a bad/frozen valve (either intake or exhaust) cause this starting issue? |
My compression tester screws into the spark plug hole and is a one-man job. Remove all of the spark plugs, screw in the tester, grab-a-holt and spin that thing like a mad-man! At least five compression strokes. Compression testing is very speed-sensitive so spin it as fast as you can. I doubt that a stuck valve will cause your symptoms; pull the valve cover and observe the valve motion.
|
|
WF owner
Orange Level
Joined: 12 May 2013
Location: Bombay NY
Points: 4672
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Aug 2023 at 6:20am |
|
Does it turn over noticeably easier with the clutch fully depressed? Maybe your problem is behind the engine?
|
|
Dale (Stonelick)
Bronze Level
Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Location: Stonelick, Ohio
Points: 179
|
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: 09 Mar 2024 at 2:51pm |
Solved the Allis B starter issue. Replaced the 12 volt solenoid with a 6 volt and it turns the engine real good with 2x Amps.
But the engine would not fire - no detectable spark. Replaced the 12 volt coil with a 6 volt borrowed from Allis C. Now it starts really well. Maybe it will crank start with the 6 volt coil.
|
|
1951 CA - 1944 C - 1949 B - Kubota M6800
|
|
Steve in NJ
Orange Level Access
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Andover, NJ
Points: 11833
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 10 Mar 2024 at 3:25pm |
Flat braided 2 gauge ground strap is the ticket for 6V like this. This is our cable...
|
|
39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife
|
|
Rick of HopeIN
Orange Level
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Hope, Indiana
Points: 1324
|
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 Mar 2024 at 4:12pm |
|
6V needs BIG cables to work and still has to have all just right. My battery is getting old and noticeably slower. This time of year I always drain fuel if it gives me any trouble starting. My old stuff does not like to have fuel in tank over the winter. I started saving it and mix it with my mower gas during the summer.
|
|
1951 B, 1937 WC, 1957 D14, -- Thanks and God Bless
|
|
