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Wisconsin engine magbeto issoes,,,, |
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desertjoe
Orange Level Access Joined: 23 Sep 2013 Location: New mexico Points: 13528 |
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Posted: 29 Oct 2022 at 9:56pm |
Well, I got some waiting to go head and repaint the mill/drill, and wanted to do something different for awhile,,,,,So,, I jumped on the Ditch Witch carburator starting issues,,,,, I removed and did a super good cleaning on the Zenith cARb and was in fact pretty dang CLEAN and all the orifices were open,!! Put it together and the SOB would not start,,!! Pulled the spark plug,,DANG that is one BIG plug,!! Took a 1" deep socket to remove it. Plug was clean, so used the spark plug testor and had NO FIRE at spark plug. Opened the magneto cover and points were some dirty but cleaned up and reset gap, tried spark testor again and still no spark! Chacked the plug wire and no spark at the spark plug!! WTH?? Borrowed a spark wire for the Ferguson and did get a weak spark at spark plug,, hooked up testor at magneto connection and had a weak spark there too,!! Can the condensor be the cause of the weak spark or is magneto the caause,,?? Took the condensor to Oreillys and the 3 dudes there were LOST and two of them did not know where to look for a condensor, CHIT,,the other dude did noy know wha one was,,,,, SHEEESH,,,
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 80230 |
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magnito functions similar to a distributor with respect to PARTS... You have a COIL , a POINT, and a CONDENSER... all are normally INSIDE on the mag... Coil is OUTSIDE on a distributor.....
So you can have a dirty point contact, a bad condenser, or a bad coil.... For a test, you could probably use any condenser that would fit in the hole... I have only worked on FM mags and get the condensers on line for about $15.
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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desertjoe
Orange Level Access Joined: 23 Sep 2013 Location: New mexico Points: 13528 |
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Kinda what I thought, Steve,,,but still wondering ,,Can you "test" a condensor? By the way,,,this one is a FM magneto,,and may of been the reason this engine was ALWAYS difficult to start. there is a tag on magneto but even with a strong light,,I can't make out the numbers,,,,DANG,,,where did all the Mom & Pop parts stores go?????
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 80230 |
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not a good way to test a condenser... I normally replace the condenser and retest... If it dont work ( your sure the POINT is clean and wires not grounded)... then i do the coil..
Edited by steve(ill) - 30 Oct 2022 at 1:33pm |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Thad in AR.
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Arkansas Points: 9422 |
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Set your multimeter to ohms.
20m hold the black probe to the lead on the condenser and the red probe to the body. It should show a steady increase in voltage for a couple seconds. Ground it out to test again. |
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jaybmiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 22270 |
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Some DMM have a capacitor function ,which is relalhandy some dayze...... If not , put on low ohms.it'll read zero them nothing(open) after a second or two. flip the leads, do it again, should be the same (0 then open). it's kinda important to replace with same valued condenser, but any will give you 'spark'. proper one will give you SPARK. Jay
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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ac hunter
Orange Level Joined: 05 Jan 2011 Location: OHIO Points: 976 |
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Years ago, 1950's, Dad and a neighbor both had NH balers with Wisconsin engines. They would get hot then not run. Once they were cool again they'd run till hot again. As I remember the cause was the coil. Got that replaced and they ran fine.
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DaveKamp
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5735 |
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There ARE condenser test sets... they're essentially a capacitance meter, but the expensive unit that a Bona-Fide-Magneto-Doctor uses, operates at a much higher voltage than a typical DMM capacitor-test function would apply. Last one I saw in-person, was the one that John Boyens used to sort out the problems with my Kohler 6.5R-something four-cyl. The note about 'anything will generate spark, but the right one will generate SPARK' is about as correct-as-you-can-get.... but "just about any that will fit... will work'... is not quite the full story... not in a Mag. In a battery-coil, the spark appears because a magnetic was built during the time the breaker points were closed (the 'dwell' time!), and battery current was flowing through the primary winding of the coil. Just so happens, that in that same magnetic neighborhood is the secondary winding that is connected to the spark plug (on one end) and ground) on the other). When the contact points open (firing time, right?) the field collapses, and in doing so, dumps a whole lot of magnetic force through the coil (both primary AND secondary), and the secondary, having no place to go (because the plug is an open gap, right?) builds a phenomenally high voltage, until it's higher than the level necessary to ionize the gap between the center conductor, and the ground electrode (or through a wire, or through a carbon trace on the plug, or a crack in the cap, or through the rotor, or through your hand... at which point, that energy blasts through to the other (grounded) side of the coil. This process happens, and it doesn't care when. Flip the points with your fingernail when the engine is stopped, and you'll get spark. The condenster, on a battery-coil system, is a 'cushion' around the contact points... because when the points open, not only is the field collapsing around the SECONDARY, it's collapsing around the PRIMARY too... and if you don't provide someplace for that energy to go, it will jump right back across the points, and burn them up. In a magneto, the magnetic field isn't built by a battery... it is flying by on a rotating shaft. The points hafta open up when the piston is in the right location... and the MAG ARMATURE needs to be in the right position WHEN IT HAPPENS, otherwise, you'll get a fizzle-fart spark... it's like... setting off your 4th of July fireworks on the 6th of july, or the 28th of june... or being on a hot date and having a premature [description of adult content deleted]... The function of the condenser in the magneto provides cushion to protect the points, but because of the magnetic character of the magneto coil and it's armature, in order for the mag coil to generate it's greatest spark energy, the PHASING (timing of points with respect to the armature) and the CAPACITANCE of the condenser, need to be matched to get the BEST result. John tested and measured six or seven different condensers... all good and working, before he found one that yielded a really, really good hot spark. He noted in his worksheet HOW MUCH capacitance yielded the best result, and he used the adjustable spark gap tester to determine it's effectiveness... then ran the magneto through it's complete speed range, to see how well it performed, and the circumstance of variables was very, very clear... even using a supposedly identical 'new' coil would mean re-testing to see what value yielded best results. But Joe, the most obvious performance measure is from your fingers and pants. If it shocks you, it's working. IF you roll it over, and just the SOUND of the SNAP! makes you wet your pants, it's working right. Strive for a spark of incontinent suggestion, and you'll have a running engine.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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desertjoe
Orange Level Access Joined: 23 Sep 2013 Location: New mexico Points: 13528 |
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Dave Kamp,,,you devil you,,,,!!!! I DO happen to know a dude that just because he COULD hold onto a 6 cylinder chevy spark plug wire and then try to dope some little curtain climber to hold his hand while all the meaness was happening,,,and,,,,and,,,with him just a cackling all the while,,,, It was kinda fun to watch them little dudes literally JUMP when he would grab their hand and just laugh his azz off all the while,,,,, THat is,,,,,until he tried that same chit with a HIi Pressure Rig that had a magneto on the engine,,,,!! Lordy,,,you sshoulda heard ole Massey SCREAMING at us to ,,,,"STOP THE ENGINE",,,that right there shoulda killed him ..he was so dang overweight,,,,,BUT,,ole Massey never messed with them spark plug wires again,,,,,,,
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Les Kerf
Orange Level Joined: 08 May 2020 Location: Idaho Points: 748 |
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Dave has it right but didn't mention that the magnets get weak and need recharged eventually.
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Thad in AR.
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Arkansas Points: 9422 |
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And anything that says Beto won’t work.
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DiyDave
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Gambrills, MD Points: 51373 |
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Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!
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desertjoe
Orange Level Access Joined: 23 Sep 2013 Location: New mexico Points: 13528 |
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Hey Thad,,,I guess I missed thast one,,,,,
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shameless dude
Orange Level Joined: 10 Apr 2017 Location: east NE Points: 13611 |
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bet you can't pull that wire outta the condensor body!
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desertjoe
Orange Level Access Joined: 23 Sep 2013 Location: New mexico Points: 13528 |
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Well,,,CHIT,,,that right there sounds just like a good old fashioned ,,,,"DARE",,,, I'll wait till the new one gets here and then I'll show,,,,,,WAIT JUST A Dang Minute,,,,whoops,,,I done forgot what I was gonna say,,,,more to come later,,,,,,,
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desertjoe
Orange Level Access Joined: 23 Sep 2013 Location: New mexico Points: 13528 |
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WHOOOPS,,,,,the new condenser came in today,,,got it installed,, and put a spark in the mag and,,,,and,,,,the SOB started right up,,,but the throttle was stuck wide opened and I'm running around trying to figure how to kill this sob before it chunks a rod,,,and "ALMOST grabbed for the spark plug wire and quickly remembered ole Massey from way back then so,,,,,I grabbed a piece of plywood and managed to knock the friggin plug wire off the spark plug,,,BUT,,,it runs!!!! The swivel for the governor lever at the carb was kinda stiff but after a few squirts of WD she idled down just fine,,,, Ran outa sunlight so I'll do some fine tuning tamattow on the carb. This machine never had a "KILL" switch or button,,so how to rig one on the magnito? OH,, and MANY THANKS for all the help on this one too,,,,whatever would I get done without ya'll's help,,,??? ? There' is one thing,,,,, This engine was totally overhauled by a contractor that used to do lots of machine work for place I worked at and since day one,,,after I got it home and fired it up,,there is a noticeable "Clankling" noise coming form the crankcase. I mentioned to the contractor and he said that was common on the Wisconsin single cylinders. He said,,"Don't be afraid of that noise as it will not hurt a thing and goes away after engine starts. Well, he was right but after using the trencher many times,,it still has that "clanking" sound but does go away soon as the engine starts. Engine is quiet as a mouse when running,,,,WTH,,??
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steve(ill)
Orange Level Access Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 80230 |
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CONGRATS !!!
YEP... change the condenser, and if that dont work, look at the coil !!! Seen a LOT of bad condensers over the years.. Keep a rag or piece of cardboard handy to cover that CARB INTAKE !!
Edited by steve(ill) - 04 Nov 2022 at 10:44pm |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Thad in AR.
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Arkansas Points: 9422 |
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Yes the famous Wisconsin clank. So long as it’s doesn’t clank when running you’re good. Sounds like you got it aired out and ready to work. |
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desertjoe
Orange Level Access Joined: 23 Sep 2013 Location: New mexico Points: 13528 |
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Well, chit,,,I shoulda checked for a place to run a "Kill Wire" when I had the mag cover off,,,,, Guess, I'll open it back up tamarrow as there is a bolt that has a black plastic washer on it that I figured would be a kill wire for the coil but after starting up I grounded the terminal and ,,,,Nuttin,,!! I don't remember now if there WAS a wire to the terminal on the inside of the mag,,,,??
Edited by desertjoe - 05 Nov 2022 at 6:28pm |
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Michael V (NM)
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: NM Points: 2385 |
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I'd jus shut the gas off, an let it run til it died...
But if your Startin an stopping a lot,, this don't work so well... |
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desertjoe
Orange Level Access Joined: 23 Sep 2013 Location: New mexico Points: 13528 |
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Hey Michael V ,,,It great to hear from you, it been a while Buddy,,,Hope life is treating you as well as you want,,,,,? I'm OK,,but I'd be much better if I could fine one of them "Sweet, young(gasp) things" for some company,,,,, You KNOW I don't talk too much,,,,, and I gotta have someone that will at least answer me back every so often,,,,!! I firmly believe that GOD did not intend for man to be alone,,,else,,he wouldn't have built so many GOOD LOOKING womens. How are you getting along on that part? It has been over ONE YEAR since my wife's been gone and I'm ready to move on and,,,,and,,,CHIT,,cold weather is right around the cawnor and them two little bitty yorkies don't give off too much heat,,,,,,, AND,,,I ain't lettin them two big uns in either!!!!!!
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PaulB
Orange Level Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Rocky Ridge Md Points: 4670 |
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I also remember many years ago working for a farmer that had a Wisconsin powered New Holland baler That you could only get running once a day. If you forgot to fill it with gas to get it through lunch and it stopped, any baling was done for that day. Even then that Wisconsin had a flat pulley mounted on an extension of the crankshaft and would only start by belting up the tractor to get that ba$tard started.
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If it was fun to pull in LOW gear, I could have a John Deere.
Real pullers don't have speed limits. If you can't make it GO... make it SHINY |
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