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Hunt4Allis 
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 Topic: Wtb d17 2 way hydraulic valve control
Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 7:36am |
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I'm looking to convert my AC d17 from 1 way to 2 way with a auxiliary valve control for a series 1 1959?
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Randy WI
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 4:48pm |
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I have this valve I removed it from my D14 contact me if you are interested. Randy
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Randy WI
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Posted: 16 Sep 2022 at 4:54pm |
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Just when out and checked I let the valve go with the tractor when I sold it. Sorry wish i could have helped. Randy
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Hunt4Allis
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Posted: 18 Sep 2022 at 5:23pm |
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No prob, any others have one they'd part with?( What I'm looking for Hopefully has a 2000-2200 PSI relief valve built in it bc my d17 is 3500-3700 PSI)
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orangereborn
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Posted: 19 Sep 2022 at 1:25am |
I think there is one on a D17 I. I will check in the morning and post my findings...Thanks...Dale**** Checked my pic's and looks like it is still on there. or are you looking for one off of a Ser lV??
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Hunt4Allis
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Posted: 19 Sep 2022 at 4:50am |
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It looks to be more than a two-way, so I'm unsure if that would do what I need?
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Hunt4Allis
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Posted: 19 Sep 2022 at 5:58am |
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My d17 is a series 1, I'm hoping to find one with a internal pressure relief valve to lower my 3700psi down to 2000psi)
Does that one have that?
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orangereborn
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Posted: 19 Sep 2022 at 2:17pm |
 Hunt4Allis wrote:
It looks to be more than a two-way, so I'm unsure if that would do what I need? |
*******Yes it is a 3 lever/6 outlets and three hoses....Dale
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Hunt4Allis
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Posted: 20 Sep 2022 at 6:34pm |
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Ok, I sent email to you
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orangereborn
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Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 1:56pm |
Matt...I looked it over yesterday and found that the valve replaced all the tractor original controls. (one hose for the pressure and one for the return running from control valve to pump housing) The valve has three two way control remote outlet sets. (six quick-couplers)
One of those is used as a one-way control for the lift arms. (again hose from valve coupler to port on the lift arm housing)
Tractor non-runner....(No hi pressure tractor available at that location for a test.) Logically with the three remotes one would think that it is low presssure conversion. But that leaves questions about the lift arms function?
It has a large type cap on each end that appear as a pressure valve control? Would it be possible it is a dual range valve system??
Gives me a head ache just looking at it....Dale
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Hunt4Allis
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Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 2:00pm |
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Okay maybe "DrAlis" could respond please? as he was the one that said I would need a pressure relief valve built into it to lower it from 3,700 to 2,000
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DrAllis
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Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 6:08pm |
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Can't respond to something I can't see. I cannot imagine any stand-alone multi-spool valve not having a relief valve.
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Hunt4Allis
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Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 6:57pm |
  DrAlis,Here's picture s
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DrAllis
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Posted: 21 Sep 2022 at 9:02pm |
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Looks like the big silver hex plug on the left could be the relief valve. Might even be some numbers on it.
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Hunt4Allis
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 4:47am |
Pm/ email sent 9/23/22
orangereborn wrote:
Matt...I looked it over yesterday and found that the valve replaced all the tractor original controls. (one hose for the pressure and one for the return running from control valve to pump housing) The valve has three two way control remote outlet sets. (six quick-couplers)
One of those is used as a one-way control for the lift arms. (again hose from valve coupler to port on the lift arm housing)
Tractor non-runner....(No hi pressure tractor available at that location for a test.) Logically with the three remotes one would think that it is low presssure conversion. But that leaves questions about the lift arms function?
It has a large type cap on each end that appear as a pressure valve control? Would it be possible it is a dual range valve system??
Gives me a head ache just looking at it....Dale |
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Allis dave
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 7:08am |
Couple things here. In the D17 manual there are explanation of a similar 3-spool control valve. The factory Allis valve says it has a built in relief valve at 2300PSI. This one doens't really look like an Allis valve. That doesn't mean it could still be fine.
You can also buy brand new ones all with a little research. 2 minutes on Google shows this.
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Hunt4Allis
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 8:09am |
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The picture of the valve that I attached is currently mounted and connected with hydraulic lines to a non-running tractor.
Does the pictured valve have things that could be dry rotted as to make it not work attached to the valve?
What are the odds that it was being used on something that required 3700 PSI if there are such things?
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DrAllis
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 8:40am |
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Generally speaking, any valve stack with similar features will only be rated for 2,000 to 2,500 psi max. That big albatross valve on that D-17 fender sure wouldn't be my choice, as it's too BIG to go to the left of the seat. You don't need three spools anyway. The reason it's up on the fender like that is they couldn't find another place for it to fit !!!!
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Hunt4Allis
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 9:16am |
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I'm not sure what valve will work if The inlet pressure on the valve I would need would have to be rated at 3,700 PSI if most valves only go up to 2500?
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DrAllis
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 9:50am |
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Stop thinking about it. The actual inlet pressure is almost ZERO psi until you activate a lever on the new 2-way valve. Then, the pressure only rises to whatever it takes to perform the "work" you are asking it to do. The MAXIMUM inlet pressure will only ever be what the relief valve is set for on the 2-way valve !! The 3700 psi relief inside the tractors pump will never be involved in anything related to the 2-way valve.
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Hunt4Allis
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 9:59am |
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I've been told the valve needed to be rated at 3700 for?
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DrAllis
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 10:20am |
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Who told you ?? The tractors pump is rated at 3700 psi. When it feeds an auxillary valve bank with a 2000-2500 psi relief built into it, the lower pressure relief valve trumps the 3700 psi relief valve.
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orangereborn
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 4:30pm |
DrAllis wrote:
Generally speaking, any valve stack with similar features will only be rated for 2,000 to 2,500 psi max. That big albatross valve on that D-17 fender sure wouldn't be my choice, as it's too BIG to go to the left of the seat. You don't need three spools anyway. The reason it's up on the fender like that is they couldn't find another place for it to fit !!!! |
******x's 2..
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orangereborn
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 4:42pm |
Has a 2753 cast in body.... https://zips.com/parts-detail/miller-parker-3-spool-hydraulic-control-12-0302798?gclid=Cj0KCQjwj7CZBhDHARIsAPPWv3dCZj-U37pXUQL2S9ik_JJwWaAZMLHbMPqA5ayd_cuDwNFtye76jL4aApnaEALw_wcB
Has a home made 3pt so must have been used as set up...I know what hi pressure does in low pressure cylinder but what is the functional effect in reverse?
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Hunt4Allis
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 7:02pm |
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I don't remember who but over the last few years of owning this I've been told it's important to make sure that the valve is rated for whatever the max PSI is the pump can deliver. So as to review this some, if I'm using my rear lift arms to raise a thousand pound round bale it may use 3700 PSI but to lift a 500 lb round bale it may cut that down to only 2,000 PSI? Or if I plug a hydraulic hose into the output that's currently on the tractor and it's connected to a cylinder if the load on the cylinder is 1,000 lb it could make the pressure 3700 PSI and with 500 lb of weight on the same setup it may only put out 2,000 PSI?
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DrAllis
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Posted: 22 Sep 2022 at 9:06pm |
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Northern Hydraulics Catalog,,,,,,Cross SA22.....double spool valve.....spring center levers......open center......set at 2,000 psi......capable of 15 GPM input......SKU: 160523.......$364.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 7:16am |
Hunt4Allis wrote:
...I've been told it's important to make sure that the valve is rated for whatever the max PSI is the pump can deliver.... |
If you're designing a system from scratch, you'd select all components based on the maximum pressure and volume necessary for the design. When altering an existing design, there's other challenges involved. What you're doing here, is trying to take a pump system that was intended to be low-volume/high pressure, and utilize it with high-volume/low pressure implements and cylinders. This is a mismatch, and far from optimal, but it WILL work, so many guys do it. Safe to bet that many of them don't know what they're doing, but the designers of the components they've stumbled upon to use incorporated sufficient protection into their valves so that catastrophic circumstances haven't appeared. As Doc, and others have pointed out, an open-center hydraulic circuit exhibits NO pressure until there's a load appllied, and when one IS, the pressure which appears is commensurate to the load.
Hunt4Allis wrote:
...If I'm using my rear lift arms to raise a thousand pound round bale it may use 3700 PSI but to lift a 500 lb round bale it may cut that down to only 2,000 PSI? Or if ...it's connected to a cylinder if the load on the cylinder is 1,000 lb it could make the pressure 3700 PSI and with 500 lb of weight on the same setup it may only put out 2,000 PSI? |
Your numbers are arbitrary, but the concept of proportion is sorta correct.
Let's say you have a cylinder that has TEN square inches of surface area. When you put a 500lb load on it, and apply pressure, the cylinder will extend when the incoming pressure reaches 50psi. (50psi x 10 square inches, is 500lbs). At that point, any more fluid you push towards the cylinder, at 50psi, will continue to extend the cylinder, until there's either no more fluid to pump, or there's no more room in the extending cylinder to accept fluid.
If you put a 1000lb load on the same cylinder, since it's a 10sqin cylinder, it will require 100psi to lift the same load.
If you use TWO cylinders of 10sqin surface, plumbed in parallel, you'll have 20 square inches of lift surface, so only need 25psi to lift 500lbs... or 50 to raise 1000lbs, but it will require TWICE the fluid, and (since the pump is not turning any faster) twice the TIME to extend.
In all these cases, the cylinder is moving, and NO pressure relief valves ever actuate, because system pressure NEVER goes anywhere NEAR any critical level.
IF you run the cylinder to it's max extension, you're 'stalling' the system... the pump is trying to force fluid into a cylinder which has no more room. THIS is when pressure rises, and when you do this, the pump is being driven by the engine, and forcing fluid into a space where no more CAN fit, the result is either 1) Pressure climbing rapidly to infinity, or 2) Engine reaches it's torque limit, and stopping abruptly...
Or 3) Something in the pump, plumbing, or actuator (cylinder, motor, etc) breaking, and developing a case of petroleum incontinence.
To provide a better alternative to 1, 2, and especially 3, sensible hydraulic systems have a pressure relief valve that will open, and bypass pressure once a certain safe point has been reached.
The early Allis, like many early hydraulic systems, were designed under the expectation that there wouldn't be a large volume of flow, so they made them capable of a fairly high pressure. They integrated a relief valve into the tractor's plumbing so that in the event that something elsewhere went wrong, the relief valve would protect the engine, coupling, and pump by bypassing any system pressure above the (arbitrary) 3800psi or so.
This was an effective method of operating simple implement lift cylinders and lift arms. High pressure meant cylinders could be compact, and wouldn't require a large volume hydraulic reservoir capacity to operate.
Fast forward 15 years or so, and the REST of the hydraulic world had grown substantially, and the popular design was to reduce the operating pressure, and go with larger cylinder surfaces. Why? Because lower pressures meant that plumbing, fittings, and fixtures did NOT need to have such brute strength, and hydraulic fluids would last much longer, leak less, and actuators could be more reliable, and valving could be more supple in it's control response.
What you are doing, is putting a low-pressure/high volume valve, in a high-pressure/low volume system. That valve has an integral pressure limiting valve, so no matter WHAT you plug in it, it will NEVER see pressures get past it's internal limit.
Since it's a system mismatch, your system will be slow, and depending on the volumes of all the cylinders you'll be using, you'll probably find that the reservoir capacity is insufficient... but you won't blow up the tractor's pump with excess pressure. Worst thing you might do, is run it dry when all the cylinders are fully extended.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Hunt4Allis
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Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 7:50am |
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Okay, thanks for all the info. Would a pump mounted at the front of the tractor on the engine belt give me a system that is matched with today's modern hydraulics and cylinders better? (High volume low pressure) instead of high pressure low volume...
Edited by Hunt4Allis - 23 Sep 2022 at 7:50am
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DrAllis
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Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 8:37am |
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Front mounted pump sticking out the front with a driveshaft just like all A-C hydraulic manure loaders use, YES !!!! Belt driven under the hood? maybe, but on a belt of its own, NOT trying to use the fan belt re-routed. 10 GPM's at 2,000 RPM's is more than enough. 8 GPM is adequate enough. 6 GPM is just a tad better than your current 4.5 GPM's, but still better because it is "live".
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Hunt4Allis
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Posted: 23 Sep 2022 at 6:16pm |
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Hmmm, I'd love to see that setup so I can get an idea of how to do it right...
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