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Fiat/Allis 16B

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Neegan View Drop Down
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Joined: 09 May 2022
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neegan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Fiat/Allis 16B
    Posted: 03 Jun 2022 at 8:25pm
I found a pretty nice ol' Allis Chalmers HD16 DP at a auction not far away and bid on it and got it. It appears to be a 68 or 69 model, does have a lift cylinder leak but other than that and a fair set of rails and sprockets the dozer looks good.
 Unlike the last hd16 this on runs, operates, steers, so that has me waay ahead compared to the last one. Wish I could post pics. 
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Codger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2022 at 10:00pm
No worries. Just attempting to allow you a somewhat informed decision. Some of this old iron can really be a can of worms if you're not real handy, industrious, or just a glutton for punishment for sure. You mentioned early on it needed some expensive and limited availability parts, so a cautious approach was necessary IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neegan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2022 at 5:31pm
Thank you for all your time and help. I went by and talked to the owner today and told him I was going to have to pass on the dozer, Just to many unknowns for me to pay him 4k for it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2022 at 12:36pm
Drop the oil pan, refill the coolant and pressurize the cooling system with an air pump or 20psi regulated shop air. Look at the bottom of the cylinder liners for leaking coolant that would escape into the oil pan. If it is not leaking at the liners it is possible either the oil cooler, turbocharger, water pump, or head gasket areas are compromised.

Liner seals can seal themselves if the engine is allowed to come up to temperature. Not stating flat out they will; just they can. That engine has set a long time so rubber parts and shrinkage are a strong concern. Oil cooler failure is common and just resealing the same takes care of it if the culprit. Seldom does the core go bad if the coolant has been maintained. Given it was green and smelled strongly of ethylene glycol, (assumed) I'd wager it's not too bad as far as the cooling system.

All this is of course assuming the seller has been straightforward in descriptions to you. Maybe it was put away due to coolant in the oil? We don't know from this vantage point. I like to think people honest but that's not always the case when selling something.....
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Neegan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neegan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2022 at 11:29am
We drained the radiator and it was a light green and you could smell the antifreeze. If its a easy and not 'costly' repair for the oil cooler seals I would be ok, just not wanting to have to go into the engine. Any advice on how to tell where the water is coming in at?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2022 at 9:50am
Probably the engine oil cooler seals have shrunk up from setting. Easy to repair if so but liner seals are a different animal of course. Is the coolant green, or is it just water? Is it rusty colored or look "good". The innards of that engine are kinda expensive if hard parts are needed.....
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Neegan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neegan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2022 at 9:11am
Well bad news, now water is getting into the oil from the radiator. It's at this point that I'm going to have to step away from this dozer. I have a new 24v starter for sale if anyone needs it. 

 BTW- Does anyone know anything about a fiat/allis fd 8 dozer? There's one about 80 miles from me for sale.  Thanks again.
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Neegan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neegan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2022 at 8:54am
I got the number from a friend of a fella who spent 35yrs building and rebuilding pumps for a living but is now retired. He works on them at home now and he told me not to mess with taking the pump apart that he thinks he can get it working on the dozer. He's coming by the first part of next week, and I will be watching him closely to see what I can learn.
 Thanks for all the advice and thanks for that link Ian.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ian Beale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2022 at 6:03am
MinnPar has parts catalogues on line


It looks like you have an in-line pump
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2022 at 6:58pm
Not really as I've been into so many of them through the years messing with antique equipment and trucks. However, and inline pump has a barrel and plunger for each cylinder. Many pumps require removal of the governor assembly to work with the rack which rotates the barrels increasing or decreasing the effective stroke of the plungers by changing spill timing. If the rack is indeed frozen in place, remove the injection lines and screw out the large plugs the injection lines attach to on the pump. Under these will be springs and discs or an apparatus that serves as the delivery valve. Ensure to keep these organized as to which placement they came from. The plungers are now exposed on their tops. I take compressed air and blow these clear of any liquid present, and then fill them with the mineral spirits allowing it to dwell. The fitment of the plungers to barrels is in the microinches range so leakdown if any will be very slow. Rapid level drop is usually a worn out pump..... 

After this solution sets a spell, try to work the rack fore and aft gingerly. If the side plate is accessible you can remove it and see if any plungers are "stuck up" in their barrels. If so, pry them down with a screwdriver as easy as you can. Don't "hammer" on them as you don't want to hurt anything. When all are down and touching the camshaft, rotate the engine and see if the plungers all ride up and down or stick again. Repeat, repeat, repeat, until all is freely operational. Once the plungers are free, the rack should be as the rack rotates the barrels in the pump housing. With everything free and moving, reassemble and test. If engine is down on power, pump is most likely worn out. 

I strongly suggest you get some printed matter to have in front of you before opening anything up. I also cannot stress cleanliness more firmly either. Dirt or foreign matter in the fuel system will cost you. 

Good luck. I don't mind the questions. It's how we learn.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2022 at 6:46pm
IF the Injector pump has a Rotary head that appears similar to a Gas Engine Distributor then it has a PSB pump, Parts are currently UNOBTANIUM, fully discontinued by American Bosch.
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Neegan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neegan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2022 at 5:20pm
Thanks Codger, still no luck today. Do you have any pics or a diagram of just what you did to get it freed up? I'm not a mechanic that's why all the questions.  Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2022 at 7:38am
I'm assuming a Bosch pump? Any experience getting those freed up when the rack is stuck, or plungers are stuck in the barrels? I usually remove the delivery valves from the top of the P&B's and fill them with mineral spirits keeping them full for a few hours. Then start to gingerly work with the rack and plunger return springs to free things up. The spirits will break the varnish that has adhered the plungers to the barrels and hopefully they don't score when working again.

Just as I've done for many years and you may have another/better way.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neegan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2022 at 5:05pm
Today we had to sort out some bad cables after getting the starter on which took a bit. But we finally got the dozer to start but would only run on ether, we will check the rack on the pump tomorrow to see if its stuck. I don't know why it could be stuck after only sitting 15yrs or so. Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAL(KS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2022 at 10:00am
Originally posted by Codger Codger wrote:

Placement of the disconnect wouldn't make much difference in the application. Either removes the potential that exists of a completed circuit.
correct, im only stating how parts book shows.  definitely more than 1 way to do it.

Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20

Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neegan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2022 at 8:56am
The owner used the two cables from the kill switch as the jumper between the two batteries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2022 at 7:51am
Placement of the disconnect wouldn't make much difference in the application. Either removes the potential that exists of a completed circuit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAL(KS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2022 at 7:30am
book shows 2x12 in series with single cable.  kill is between negative post and ground to tractor.
Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20

Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neegan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2022 at 5:22pm
Well the rain shut us down today, hopefully tomorrow will be the day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neegan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2022 at 4:12pm
Got the cables sorted today and also bought a new starter for the dozer. Tomorrow we put on the starter and hookup the batteries then see if this ol'dozer will start and move.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by Neegan Neegan wrote:

Thanks, I just don't get why there are 2 positive cables going to the kill switch, just seems odd.


You could run a single cable but much larger than two smaller ones serving the same purpose. Someone along the line probably replaced the original cable as I don't believe a parallel setup was "as built", but rather probably a single 2/0 cable.

Whole lot of things get changed in the lifespan of machinery. 
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Neegan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neegan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 9:40pm
Thanks, I just don't get why there are 2 positive cables going to the kill switch, just seems odd.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Codger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 6:36pm
Parallel cable routing to carry starting current most likely. There were original either two 12VDC batteries wired in series, or four six volt batteries. If four six volt batteries these were all wired in series. What this means is one positive pole ties to the next negative pole of the next battery. You then have your last positive pole tied to the disconnect switch, and the negatives to chassis ground. I am assuming a negative ground system. If positive ground, the leads are reversed. Basically, batteries wired in series are additive in voltage. Batteries wired in parallel are the same in voltage but much greater current reserve.

If the engine has an alternator, it is most likely negative ground. If a generator, most likely positive ground.  
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Neegan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neegan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2022 at 4:53pm
I have another question, I know this is a 24 volt system but I'm a little confused by the cables in the battery box on this dozer. There are 2 positive cables coming from the kill switch and it appears 2 ground cables that run under the dozer. I dont see how this configuration could result in 24 volts. What am I missing here? Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2022 at 5:50pm
Should be a 50MT Delco 24v, could be a 40MT 24v differences will only be bendix tooth count.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neegan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2022 at 5:08pm
I looked that starter up at minnpar but not sure its for a 17000 MKII 844 engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neegan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2022 at 4:44pm
Thank you for the help. I haven't purchased any manuals yet because if the dozer does not operate like the owner said, then I'm not buying it. If I buy it I will for sure order parts and service manuals.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAL(KS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2022 at 2:29pm
both numbers replaced by 74396759 minnpar has in stock


Edited by CAL(KS) - 18 May 2022 at 2:29pm
Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20

Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CAL(KS) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2022 at 2:24pm
73117237 1 MOTOR, starting ("Delco-Remy" #1113898)(Standard)
 70620350 1 MOTOR, starting ("Delco-Remy" #1109986XHeavy-duty

try this from powershift tractor book.  didnt check the direct drive book but guessing the same

and minnpar has oem manuals online.

Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20

Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neegan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2022 at 12:02pm
Can anyone help me out here? I'm looking for the part number for a starter for this HD16B serial number 19S13130. The owner can't find where he put the old starter. Dead Thanks
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