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Bob-Maine 
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 Topic: Allis-Chalmers Pulled a TRAIN!!!
Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 6:36pm |
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CADon, Today's locomotives still have sanders. A locootive carries several yards of dry sand in a reservoir and it is blown by air onto the rail in front of wheels when activated by the engineer. Bob@allisdowneast
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I used to think I was indecisive, but now I'm not sure.
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AllisChalmers37
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Posted: 14 Aug 2012 at 10:15am |
 dnel45 wrote:
I know this is an old thread but I wanted to see the pictures in it and they don't seem to be loading. Does anyone else have these pictures? I am looking for this ad to hang up in my tractor room. Thanks. |
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1937 WC, 1950 CA, 1959 D14, 1967 190XT, 2006 Ram 3500
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CAdon
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Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 10:03pm |
way back up somebody mentioned traction/friction/resistance. steel wheels on steel track is what makes trains (and trolleys) so efficient. the major issue is startup slippage, which is why all the early steam engines had sand tubes which dribbled sand right in front of the drive wheels to provide a little more friction as they pulled out of the stations. but only the best engineers could avoid the chug chug chug chuchuchuchuchug chug chug you'd hear as the wheels temporarily lost traction at startup. also the jarring pop as each coupler took up the slack as pointed out above. btw grandpa was a steam engine fireman and i have 25 years experience as a rr museum volunteer.
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52 CA, 41 B and a little B1 oh, yeah... and an 8N ford snuck in there, too.
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dnel45
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Posted: 13 Aug 2012 at 11:39am |
I know this is an old thread but I wanted to see the pictures in it and they don't seem to be loading. Does anyone else have these pictures? I am looking for this ad to hang up in my tractor room. Thanks.
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clovis
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Posted: 22 Sep 2010 at 4:27am |
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Very cool thread...I learned something new today.
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DREAM
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Posted: 21 Sep 2010 at 4:54pm |
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Oops, apologies Jeremy. There are several different spellings, I just forgot which one was yours'. My ex-MIL always called me Britt, even though my name is Brent. Now everyone just calls me Dream, including my wife, SILs(3), and MIL. LOL!
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AllisChalmers37
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Posted: 21 Sep 2010 at 4:35pm |
DREAM wrote:
I don't care so much about the train-pulling episode. It is kinda like the pickup truck commercials with one climbing a large boulder-strewn hill with a competitor across it's bed, and towing another. It can be done.
What impressed me about Jeromys' post with the 3 manufacturers comparison is how much better the AC looked than the others. Their styling was far ahead of the times. Look at what is out there now. The others have gone in that direction, whether by chance or by imitation. AC was a pioneer. A lot of others copied them, some made theirs better, but it was AC engineerings' idea. Can't argue with that. |
Well said. Except for one thing. My name is Jeremy LOL!
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1937 WC, 1950 CA, 1959 D14, 1967 190XT, 2006 Ram 3500
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DREAM
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Posted: 20 Sep 2010 at 9:32pm |
I don't care so much about the train-pulling episode. It is kinda like the pickup truck commercials with one climbing a large boulder-strewn hill with a competitor across it's bed, and towing another. It can be done.
What impressed me about Jeromys' post with the 3 manufacturers comparison is how much better the AC looked than the others. Their styling was far ahead of the times. Look at what is out there now. The others have gone in that direction, whether by chance or by imitation. AC was a pioneer. A lot of others copied them, some made theirs better, but it was AC engineerings' idea. Can't argue with that.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 20 Sep 2010 at 8:49pm |
SbarBRanch wrote:
he told us that they had to apply the brakes on the train cars as the tractor was pulling them downhill...
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It is S.O.P. to have brakes applied when descending into a non-locomotive draft unit, especially when the draft unit does NOT have gladhand couplers for charging the brake pipe. This is an AAR recommendation for yard and hostling operation, and when on mainline track, the FRA has a host of requirements in similar categories. Regardless, if one looks closely at the photo, you'll see visual proof that the trestle crossing is not a decent path, and like most low-elevation trestles, the trestle deckway and trestle approach is superelevated with respect to the roadway. This is common ROW engineering procedure, both to protect the trestle from rapid erosion in the event that flash flooding occurs, and to allow short consists to be parked atop the trestle to stabilize it during floods.
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Lonn
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Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 3:31pm |
In the 4 years I worked at the AC dealership they did 2 planetary jobs. A 7020 and a 7040. The 7040 belonged to a neighbor of mine. He owned it since 1980 when our other neighbor, the 1st owner, had a foreclosure sale. The tractor looked beat then and the grill was smashed with a hole in the radiator. The 2nd owner absolutely didn't believe in maintenance. Never changed rear end or hydraulic oils and would brag on how he would go 4 years without changing the engine oil. I shook my head at that but it was his tractor. He passed on about 10 years ago but his son still has the tractor and has never had any other major work done to it. It's a power shift.
During those 4 years we did one Power Director job on a 200 where the splines were gone on the clutch plates and we did a couple where the seals were cooked out from overheating the oil running a hydraulic motor on a couple 190's. Our main shop fixes were older Allis' jumping out of gear and a couple 190xt's pushing lots of HP through the rear end ending in catastrophic failure and 1 7000 where the reverse idler went out. The Power Directors and Power Shifts were pretty much trouble free for all the Allis tractors and the 7000 and 8000 series would drive a shop broke cause other than the occasional engine OH or 7080 breaking a nose off or shift cable replacement they were not seen in the shop. It was a good thing there were a lot of Gleaners out and about and that combines always wear out no matter the brand.
Edited by Lonn - 19 Sep 2010 at 3:32pm
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SbarBRanch
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Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 11:05am |
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My cousin worked for the Railroad at Walden, CO (he laid the planks along the rail so they could hook up to the train) when this happened-he told us that they had to apply the brakes on the train cars as the tractor was pulling them downhill-just want you to have all the facts. We are Allis fans and think they are the best tractors ever made however this post isn't representing all the facts.
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Max(ia)
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Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 10:53am |
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Should have taken pictures, for years before it closed the Elevator shifted all the Grain Cars around with, either a 190 or a 200. Couldn't tell which, because it was so beat up from being run into or rolled. They would pull two or three straddling the rails and crawling up and over the crossings, with one guy at the brake wheel on one of the cars.
Sometimes however one might get away and run through the switch on to the main line. lol They did really tear up rear tires and the gravel road bed.
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SHAMELESS
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Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 1:04am |
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whew!
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tbran
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Posted: 19 Sep 2010 at 12:16am |
I remember talking to , I think I have the name right, Carl Stevens , some one correct me if I 'm wrong , who drove the 7080. The sales and service crew worked all day with different tires and spacing to get the unit to best fit on the track. He said something about a sledgehammer and a 10 penny nail and pucker power. There was no problem at all starting the cars. The tractor would hop on the cross ties if too high a gear was used. He said they could have started 60 cars, but 30 was all the budget they had ; U.P. was not doing this for the exercise. The tractor went out over a trestle and his eyes were glued to the tracks as there was no room for wiggle. To his dismay the camera crew was flagging him down and he had to BACK UP and do it again - over and over - better part of a day. The tires were shot but the tractor was not even stressed. It was a great marketing ploy - everyone turned an eye to the tractor.
As to the 7000 series, they were tough. Still out there and have migrated to farmers who are not eat up with egos and status but rather a keen eye on the bottom line. These guys canabalize the bad ones to keep the others going. In our 32 years we have replaced 1 planetary and one set of brakes - total. We do more clutch/tranny work on competition of the same vintage each year than the 32 year total on AC 7000 - 8000 series, but in fairness there are a lot more of them out there. If we had known then what we know now - there would have been a lot more allis's sold I would wager.
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Lonn
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Posted: 18 Sep 2010 at 7:52pm |
Averaging is how they always do it when testing sound levels. Just like testing horsepower. Back in their day Allis had good resale value and they were number one in combine resale back then.
7030 = Economy Rated PTO HP 15.37 hp hrs/gal, at 1000 rpm PTO 15.45, at varying PTO loads average 11.76, at max drawbar power 12.92, at 75% pull at max power 11.90, 50% pull at max power 9.91, 50% pull at reduced eng spd 13.63
Couldn't find a complete report for 4430 but.... 4430 = Economy Rated PTO HP 15.56, at max drawbar power 12.94, at 75% pull at max power 11.96
1066 = Economy Rated PTO HP 14.93, at 1000 rpm PTO 16.37, at varying PTO loads average 11.32, at max drawbar power 12.78, at 75% pull at max power 11.97, 50% pull at max power 9.99, 50% pull at reduced eng spd 14.30
How about the 7050, 4630, 1566 corresponding with the same order as above
7050 = 15.93, 16.04, 12.69, 13.47, 12.67, 10.53, and 13.55 Rated HP is 156.49
4630 = 15.68, NA, 12.43, 13.34, 12.88, 10.59, and 13.05 Rated HP is 150.66
1566 = 14.55, 16.16, 11.51, 12.55, 11.69, 9.865, and 11.93 Rated HP is 161.01
How about all the cab dBA 7050 = 79.5; 4630 = 82.5; 1566 = 90.0
I,ve worked in both AC and IH dealerships and interned at a Deere dealership. I noticed one big thing. After Deutz got Allis the resale dropped like a ton of bricks. It got so that fixing a 7030 or 190 was more costly than buying another 7030 or 190. At the Deere and IH shops the customer is much more willing to fix a tractor that has good resale yet. You won't see the high hours as often on an AC because of that one major reason. When you look at a tractor with 5,000 or 6,000 hrs that needs an engine overhaul that may cost $7,000 or more but you can find another real nice one for that money many will give up and go find another tractor. Look at a 4430. It's worth twice that money but the overhaul will cost the same as the 7030. $14,000 tractor needs $7,000 repair. Most will do the repair. Simple economics.
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GBACBFan
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Posted: 18 Sep 2010 at 2:02pm |
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They also omitted resale value, but probably intentional.
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"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 18 Sep 2010 at 1:45pm |
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Wow! A whole 3 dB reduction in niose level! That's about the minimum change you can detect by ear though its reducing the noise power to half. The measurement probably isn't repeatable to 3 dB without hours of averaging.
Now for comparring factors they neglected two that in the long run are vital. What's the fuel consumption at full and partial load and how many hours will each tractor last? 4000, 8000, 12,000? Or how many hours to the first rebuild? Then will that rebuild be engine or transmission?
Gerald J.
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AllisChalmers37
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Posted: 18 Sep 2010 at 12:04pm |
morton(pa) wrote:
Now let us remember...It looks impressive...therefore it IS impressive...to the untrained eye...Don't ever tell your DEERE or IH guys that info when showing them this pic!!!! |
You can tell them every little thing about this one. The numbers don't lie.
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1937 WC, 1950 CA, 1959 D14, 1967 190XT, 2006 Ram 3500
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morton(pa)
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Posted: 18 Sep 2010 at 11:32am |
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Now let us remember...It looks impressive...therefore it IS impressive...to the untrained eye...Don't ever tell your DEERE or IH guys that info when showing them this pic!!!!
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 7:23pm |
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Yep. Amazing how many people bought into Charles Atlas... except, of course, railroad guys. The fascinating lesson here, is the concept of horsepower, compared to draft capability. When judging the power of a locomotive, you can throw the engine's horsepower ratings right out the window- as long as the engine is spinning the generator, horsepower ratings simply don't matter... drawbar effort is limited by the driven wheel diameter, weight on driven wheels, and weight on undriven wheels. Horsepower, however, includes time, so a very slow moving consist, being pulled really, really hard, still doesn't calculate out to mathematically high horsepower.
But as everybody said... the kinetic energy is very, very, very, very high.
Mooring an aircraft carrier is the same way... bring her in at only a couple'a feet per minute... but if it's still moving, it'll crush a whole lotta drydock in slow motion. Fun to watch, as long as it's not on YOUR watch...
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Bob-Maine
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Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 6:52pm |
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If you look at the text in the ad, it mentions the "slack" between each cars couplers ("coupling hit coupling, down the line"). The tractor actually only starts one car moving at a time. When the "Slack is in",
the cars are bunched together and one begins to move, then after is has moved several inches, the next car begins to move, and so forth until all are moving. But still a neat piece of advertising. Bob@allisdowneast
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7060
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Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 3:59pm |
The 7080 had a Shift-on-the-go power director? I thought they all had to be stopped to change gears or ranges?
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DonDittmar
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Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 3:17pm |
AllisChalmers37 wrote:
DonDittmar wrote:
HagerAC wrote:
I got the promo video that shows that, it is an awesome video. |
I have the same video. its a good one |
Could you post this video. I would like to see this. |
Its on VHS. If I had a way to get it on my computer I would be glad too
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D
Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start
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D17JIM
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Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 2:00pm |
Dad said in the 1930's his Dad and him used a team of horses to move cars at the local coal tipple. Made a couple of bucks during bad years. The horses just needed to keep pulling hard until the car started moving. Used the hand brake to stop the cars. They pulled them after they were loaded also used a team on each side.
Here at the fertilizer plant we use a case skid stear to push them. Again some one runs the hand brake.
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 11:17am |
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I agree with Dave too. It would be impressive if the tractor was pulling those cars uphill.
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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AllisChalmers37
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Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 8:50am |
DonDittmar wrote:
HagerAC wrote:
I got the promo video that shows that, it is an awesome video. |
I have the same video. its a good one |
Could you post this video. I would like to see this.
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1937 WC, 1950 CA, 1959 D14, 1967 190XT, 2006 Ram 3500
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E7018
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Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 7:59am |
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The question in my mind is how did they get permission from UP to do that?
Years ago we wanted to get in the business of loading unit trains. The guys that knew the business wouldn't tell us. There was a Trackmobile on an auction on Saturday and we had 25 cars coming on Monday. We knew nothing about how to air up a car to use the brakes.
It doesn't work well to jam an Allison transmission in reverse to stop 3 - 4 cars. That was a hard learning curve. We did finally get to the point of having origination weights and grades and a switch engine. Now, it is just always overnights, holidays, weekends, storms. Whenever guys don't want to be there doing it.
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Calvin Schmidt
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Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 6:24am |
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One of my customers moves loaded rail cars with a Genie boom manlift.
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Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed
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TomYaz
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Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 6:14am |
DaveKamp wrote:
Neat add, but don't let it glaze your eyes.
About ten years ago, my Dad pointed to an ad in a '50's Popular Science magazine, showing Charles Atlas pulling a railcar with a rope... saying 'That was one strong guy'.
Yep. Sure. NOT!
At the time, I was teaching railcar maintenance all over the US, Canada, and overseas. Several times a day, we'd move railcars in and out of the shop... pushing them by hand.
See, the rolling resistance of steel wheels on straight steel track, is incredibly low... and with good roller bearings on those axles, it doesn't matter how heavy that railcar is... it will roll with the slightest push... it's just that it takes a steady push and patience. We used four guys to spot 90-ton subway cars (with 4 400hp electric motors on 9:1 gearboxes) into the shop for maintenance. We'd apply release air, then just lean on the car... and in 15 seconds, it'd be moving slow, another 15 seconds, it's rolling at a walking pace.
One of the biggest concerns here, though, and I taught it EXTENSIVELY in our safety classes, is that the car, although moving slow, possesses incredible inertia, and that wheel-to-rail interface, as well as inter-car or obstruction contact, is deadly. You can be working under a railcar, with one hand on a running rail, twisting a wrench, and leaning on the car, and if not chocked, it will start rolling ever-so-slowly, and ever-so-quietly, and as soon as you realize that your hand is under a rolling wheel, it's too late... your hand will be gone, and there's nothing you can do to stop it.
Pulling the train with a tractor is no big deal... that farm tractor's tractive effort is WAY more than required, particularly on straight level track. Realize that those agricultural tractor tires against the ties is considerably higher than a locomotive's steel wheels against steel rail. The average thrust capacity of a locomotive of THAT VINTAGE is about 26% of it's weight... SO, if the locomotive weighs 200,000lbs, the drawbar effort available is limited to about 52000lbs. It seems insanely wrong, but one horsepower is 33,000 foot-pounds per minute. That means you're pushing 33,000lbs one foot, in one minute. That means, at very low speed, that drawbar effort equates to very little horsepower (and by definition, that is true). That 2,000hp locomotive seems pretty weak... but keep in mind that the locomotive's power is limited by wheel slip... that applying 52,000lbs of draft to the consist at 60mph is the 'horsepower' equivalent of 52,000lbs 5280 feet in one minute... so... mathematically capable of 8200hp.
This doesn't make sense, does it? Horsepower ratings for locomotives don't make mathematical sense... of course, nor do tractor horsepower ratings. If you put 180 horses in a team, would they equate to the same capacity of that tractor? (I doubt it).
The locomotive's advantage over the tractor... if the locomotive is mechanically-controlled diesel-electric, it can apply it's full drawbar effort starting at 0 speed, and keep a constant draft force regardless of speed... and can do it indefinately. The tractor, however, cannot do that if it has a mechanical driveline and no torque converter. If it's hydrostatic, or uses a torque converter, it can start at zero speed, and operate that way for a little while before overheating the fluid. Once the consist starts moving, it'll accelerate to whatever speed the tractor can manage.
Here: http://arvadahoundz.com/images/chama_little_gas_loco.jpg
If I remember correctly, these little Chamas used either a Minnie-Mo tractor or Hercules industrial engine driving a generator, which drove one 30hp DC traction motor on each axle. Easily shuffles 3 cars around tight bends in railway yards, so they'll pull 10 on straight level track.
Here's a Shuttlewagon: Easily capable of a 31-car straight track pull-
http://www.shuttlewagon.net/315.html
I'd be confident that a WD, WD-45, and a D17 would all be capable of making that pull... but it'd be best to run without wheel weights, so that you could let the tires take the initial slip, rather than dragging the clutch.
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Now Dave, you just have to take the fun out of everything! LOL!
Well, it "looks" impressive, and thats marketing for ya...
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DonDittmar
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Posted: 17 Sep 2010 at 6:00am |
HagerAC wrote:
I got the promo video that shows that, it is an awesome video. |
I have the same video. its a good one
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Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity"
1968 D15D,1962 D19D
Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start
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