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Allis WC Miss on #1 and #2

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Fryfarm1907 View Drop Down
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Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Location: Missouri
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fryfarm1907 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Allis WC Miss on #1 and #2
    Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 9:53pm
My 1948 WC is missing on the #1 and #2 cylinders. With that said, the engine was rebuilt about 7 years ago and not ran much. Due to the above problem I have changed the plugs, new wires, new distributor cap, new points, retimed, valves reset to specs, carb rebuilt and compression seems to be good. Tonight I checked the manifold for a leak by spraying carb cleaner in 1 and 2 and it almost seemed to bog down as opposed to smoothing out like I expected if there was a leak. Regardless, with the carb cleaner there was an obvious change in how it ran. The manifold was quite pitted, so I’ve ordered a new one. Anything else it could be?
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DrAllis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 10:36pm
There should be no change when you spray anything at that area, so there is something wrong.
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DaveKamp View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2020 at 11:32pm
Most likely, you have some sort of a vacuum leak in the pathway to the #1/2 intake port.

If it were a motorcycle, the thing to do, would be to get it up to some load level, then cut the ignition, once stopped, pull all the plugs and look at the color of the center electrode insulator, to identify the mixtures of each cylinder.

There's a couple odd things that can happen to manifolds, one being a porous casting... the other is a porosity or crack in the segment of the manifold where exhaust and intake share a common wall.  On Allis engines, and most industrial inlines, the exhaust and intake manifold is either manufactured as a single assembly OR... they're bolted together such that exhaust heat can pass through a thin conjoined surface into the intake at an area fairly close to the carbeurator inlet flange.  The reason for this, is because airflow through the venturi and throttle plate cause a rapid reduction in pressure that will not only freeze the passage and bind the throttle plate, it will also inhibit good evaporation of fuel, and as a result, make for a very inefficient combustion cycle.

What happens at times, is a leak occurs from the exhast side, through that shared surface, into the intake manifold... and because of it's location, the natural accumulation of carbon soot, and the fact that they're always at room temperature when you're inspecting in there, a simple thermal crack can be downright invisible.

porosity through the same surface is basically just as invisible.

Since you've already ordered another manifold, you'll know soon-enough wether that is the culprit... but if you want to try something else, start it up, and carefully lift one of the plug wires JUST SLIGHTLY... make it jump from the distributor tower to the plug wire for a couple strikes- if the cylinder clears the miss, then what you're dealing with is probably carbon-fouling of the spark plug insulator.  If so, replace the plugs, and you MAY need to go up one heat range to keep them clear.  Don't make it a habit to leave them this way, especially on a magneto- forcing an arc gap at the distributor burns away the distributor and wire, it also forces ignition voltage way up, which can damage the winding insulation of the magneto's high-tension winding.
Oh, and if you replace the plugs, use a non-Champion plug... they're not what they used to be...
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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LeonR2013 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LeonR2013 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 2:21am
Head gasket between cylinders?
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AaronSEIA View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AaronSEIA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 5:54am
You could run a compression test, but I'm with the Dr.  If the manifold isn't sealed good, you probably have a vacuum leak.
AaronSEIA
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theropod View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theropod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 6:01am
Worse case possibility is a cracked head between the cylinder’s combustion chambers. My ‘92 Ranger with a Lima 2.3 did exactly as described, and had just such a crack. A about 2500 RPM the engine would stumble and buck, and NOT get better with more revs. At idle and up to that engine speed it ran “fine”. There was a four year span where Ford made the heads far too thin to allow for the 8 spark plugs, and finding a functioning intact head from those years is next to impossible. My truck is sitting at my buddy’s shop right now after a block boring and crank grind. I had to find a “repaired” head. We’re waiting on a $25 crank position sensor to make it run. Pro tip: never wash off the gunk from any sensor with gas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fryfarm1907 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 6:53am
Any guidance on torquing the manifold bolts of the new one?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brkfldj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 7:27am
Welcome to the forum. This is the place to get advice from very knowledgeable folks. When your "miss" is corrected, please post the solution. This forum is a great home-schooling resource for us wanting to learn. Some pics, please. We would like to see your tractor, also.
Jim
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ——— Ben Franklin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 7:56am
Welcome Fryfarm
So you sprayed carb cleaner on and around the exterior of #1 and #2 cylinders on the manifold. using carb cleaner you got a difference in how it ran? Just trying to clairify your test method. I have heard of tests like that but have never done it. And the Dr. says you should see no change?? I am sure not the expert. I did not see that you had checked the engine timing? Now that may not be a issue at all, but a good item to cross off the list too.
 And yes like Jim we need some pictures too!
Regards,
Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fryfarm1907 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 9:01am
I have retimed the tractor, yes. For the carb cleaner test, I sprayed it around 1 and 2 on the manifold an it bogged down a bit, the complete opposite of what I expected. Pictures coming soon. Thanks for all the help this far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 9:14am
Fryfarm,
Thanks for the update on your WC! Would a compression check find or indicate that there is a leak between cylinders?
Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald J. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 9:35am
I have WC shop manual in several pieces at:

http://geraldj.networkiowa.com/Trees 

Gerald J.

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Fryfarm1907 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fryfarm1907 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 2:27pm
I just checked compression in all cylinders again and they all have strong comparable compression. Manifold to arrive Friday, I will keep my fingers crossed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveM C/IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 8:08pm
Firing order correct?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NICKMI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 9:55pm
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Fryfarm1907 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fryfarm1907 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 4:59pm
Bolted on the new manifold and everything is in working order. Some tweaks on the carb and distributor and I think I will be where I want. Thanks for all the help guys!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 6:14pm
Fryfarm,
You may want to mark that old manifold with "BAD" on it. Time goes by and someone else might have issues.
 Glad that it fixed the problems!
 Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theropod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by Sugarmaker Sugarmaker wrote:

Fryfarm,
You may want to mark that old manifold with "BAD" on it. Time goes by and someone else might have issues.
 Glad that it fixed the problems!
 Regards,
 Chris

I bet the surface could be flattened on an mill, or ground, and would be good as new. Unless there’s a crack somewhere a good flat mating surface would make it whole again. I save all kinds of stuff like that.
Put the bunny back in the box!
1938 B, 1977 Yanmar YM2200

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