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sploke 
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 Topic: WD45 - engine coming out
Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 7:32am |
I have two problems I will be addressing here very shortly with my WD45. The first is a ton of coolant getting into the oil. I'm hoping it is as simple as a bad freeze plug in the head, but I will see once I get it opened up.
The second is a massive oil leak at the rear crank seal. The upper section, of course. I dropped the oil pan and replaced the oil pan gaskets, and the leak is still there, running down the face of the engine crankshaft output. It will dump close to a quart an hour while running.
My intent is to drain everything, pull the engine and put it on a stand, flip it over and change the seals. The engine was supposedly rebuilt by a friend of the previous owner, but everything else will get at least a good inspection while I'm in there....is there anything else I should keep an eye out for while I have her opened up?
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DrAllis
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Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 7:36am |
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You need to determine exactly what your coolant leak is FIRST !! You may have a cracked BLOCK !!! Remove the oil pan and valve cover and pressurize the cooling system and see where it's coming from FIRST !! before pulling the engine...………….
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sploke
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Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 7:48am |
Good advice. I still have to get the hood off and all that to see what I'm doing, so I will do that before disconnecting everything.
What's the best way to pressurize the cooling system, throw together some sort of plug for the radiator cap I can put an air hose on? I'd imagine it should only take a few pounds of pressure for a leak to manifest...
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Don(MO)
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Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 8:22am |
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I'd call your parts store and rent a "radiator pressure tester" take your cap along to get the right one to fit your tractor. Don't pressurize over 7 PSI!!!
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3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep.
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 12:39pm |
sploke, Sure hope you have better luck than me and my current 45. Its been a year since I pulled the engine in mine. Turned into a much larger, more interesting, and more expensive project than I had anticipated! Yes low pressure testing revealed the cracks in my block between the sleeves. Wishing you the best. But your headed in the right direction. I still like them enough to fix them. Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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sploke
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Posted: 13 Jun 2019 at 7:38am |
 Sugarmaker wrote:
sploke, Sure hope you have better luck than me and my current 45. Its been a year since I pulled the engine in mine. Turned into a much larger, more interesting, and more expensive project than I had anticipated! Yes low pressure testing revealed the cracks in my block between the sleeves. Wishing you the best. But your headed in the right direction. I still like them enough to fix them. Regards, Chris |
Yes, I am surely hoping it doesn't turn into one of those types of projects...I have enough of those already :D
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sploke
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Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 10:27pm |
Well, not I am kind of stumped. I rented the radiator pressure testing kit, hooked it up, and unfortunately (fortunately?) I did not find a smoking gun for a coolant leak. I pressurized the system up to 7lbs and let it sit for about 15 min. It had dropped to maybe 6.5lbs, and I didn't see any evidence of coolant flowing, either under the valve cover or into the oil sump area. I did notice some wetness/seeping around one of the water pump hoses, but that wouldn't explain coolant getting into the oil. Another thing I noticed when I drained the oil, it did smelly extremely gassy. That might be a separate issue. I'm fairly vigilant about closing the fuel petcock when the tractor is not running, so I'm not sure how any volume of gas would make it into the oil just while the tractor is running.
This is what was left in the oil pan when I dropped it...all the oil looked like that. The oil in this tractor has about 10hrs of time on it.
Here's a shot under the valve cover. Everything looked good, other than being coated with the chocolate milk oil.
Here are a few shots of the crank and pistons...the bottom sides of the pistons look remarkably clean to me, I'm wondering if they've been replaced at some point.
Shot of the seepage around the water pump hose
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JoeO(C-MO)
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Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 10:34pm |
Don(MO) wrote:
I'd call your parts store and rent a "radiator pressure tester" take your cap along to get the right one to fit your tractor. Don't pressurize over 7 PSI!!! |
I was told the AC radiators should not exceed 7 lbs pressure by the local dealer at the time. Sometime later I took a D15 radiator into a fairly new radiator shop for clean out and a few days later I was informed that it needed a new core. I always thought it had too much pressure used to clean out.
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D10 III, D15 II 3 pt, D15 II SC, 170 Gas w/shuttle, 175 Diesel UI ROPS, 185 w ROPS. AC 653 w/6 way blade, ROPS
AC 615 Ind. WD45 running/Parts.
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Don(MO)
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Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 10:43pm |
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Did you save the oil you removed for the tractor if you did poor some of it in a clear container and let it sit for a day or two and look at and report back.
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3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 10:44pm |
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I doubt 15 min is enough. Couple hours be more like it. Overnight even better. Antifreeze leaks easier than water alone. Think you will eventually find liner oring dripping.
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sploke
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Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 5:44am |
Don(MO) wrote:
Did you save the oil you removed for the tractor if you did poor some of it in a clear container and let it sit for a day or two and look at and report back. |
I do still have the oil, I had dumped out my catch pan prior to draining the tractor so I'll try that and see how it looks. I'm assuming, if there is a significant amount of coolant in the oil, it should separate out to get an idea of how much is in there?
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sploke
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Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 5:47am |
SteveM C/IL wrote:
I doubt 15 min is enough. Couple hours be more like it. Overnight even better. Antifreeze leaks easier than water alone. Think you will eventually find liner oring dripping. |
Ok...now that the pan has been off for a while and everything that's dripping off the bottom end hopefully has, I can clean it up a bit and check again. With everything under there dripping with dirty oil, it would be hard to see yet another slight leak from one of the sleeves. Once everything else has stopped dripping, it should be easier to spot.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 6:06am |
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Take a can of brake kleen and spray it down.
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 7:11am |
Sploke, Yep looks like you have a WD45 opened up. Don would also tell you that you might as well get ready to pull the engine to do the seals and pan gaskets properly. But back to the finding of the leak. Dr recommends spraying with brake cleaner. I would never have thought of that! I like learning stuff from these guys! Your water contamination was not as bad as mine. And I found my leaks easy as I had cracks between each pair of sleeves! My grandsons younger eyes helped too! My guess is that you have a very small leak but still a leak. Now finding it. The pressure tester, and a good light. Maybe a air hose to blow off any drips? And could it be somewhere not visible?? Good luck I will be watching! Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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DrAllis
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Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 7:44am |
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The coolant leak at the water pump hose, is probably NOT the hose. It's the water pump seal leaking onto the hose. I'm just sayin...……...
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mhankins
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Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 8:01am |
You can also get an ultra violet dye to put in the radiator.
Don't know if it will get into the entire system,though with out being able to run the engine and circulate it.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 12:12pm |
DrAllis wrote:
The coolant leak at the water pump hose, is probably NOT the hose. It's the water pump seal leaking onto the hose. I'm just sayin...……... |
I agree. Have been there.
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 12:18am |
DrAllis wrote:
The coolant leak at the water pump hose, is probably NOT the hose. It's the water pump seal leaking onto the hose. I'm just sayin...……... |
Actually, if you look at the underside edge of the water pump neck, you can see that it's got residue on it that supports the likelyhood of this assertion....
But this doesn't explain the presense of water in the oilpan... and IF he doesn't get any leakage indication with pressure test while pan is off, it's PROBABLY because the block is sealing fine at room temp, but once running, it's got either some loss of seal due to thermal expansion, OR... there's enough of a compression leak through the head gasket, or the head, etc, to 'force' coolant into the oil realm.
Double check those cylinder head frost plugs!!!
Edited by DaveKamp - 18 Jun 2019 at 12:21am
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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sploke
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Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 8:00am |
I repeated the pressure test..blasted the oil sump/crank area with brake cleaner to clean it up as much as possible and wiped down the bottoms of the sleeves, and cleaned up around the freeze plugs. Pressurized to 7psi and left it for about an hour, again with no visible leakage, weeping or seepage. At this point, I'm thinking it's like DaveKamp says...the leak may be such that it will only manifest under operation at temperature.
I got the engine out, so my current plan is basically preventative measures, i.e. start throwing parts at it :D I need to pull the crank to replace the oil seals there, so I figure I might as well pull the head off as well, replace the head gasket and cylinder sleeve o-rings as potential leak sources as well. The freeze plugs in the head appear pristine, but I'll knock on them a little to make sure they are solidly seated.
One question - when you order the oil pan gasket set, it comes with the two formed pieces for the sides of the oil pan, and two pairs of straight gaskets, I'm assuming one for above the main seal and one for below. The pairs are two different lengths...which one goes where?
Engine out!
This is the pulley/coupling on the front of the crank that goes to the hydro pump to power the FEL. It's an...interesting setup. And the pump location made getting the engine out a real freaking pain.
manifold side
oil sample...looks awesome, right?
it's been sitting for about 2 days in this picture, and you can see some separation in the bottom inch or so of the container.
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Dave(inMA)
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Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 8:46am |
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Nasty looking oil. Hope your search for the failure point works out well.
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WC, CA, D14, WD45
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DaveKamp
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Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 11:08am |
Aw, man... that hydraulic pump drive concept is nasty. Sheesh...
well, it's apparently the best they could do with what they got... I'm
surprised that the pulley survived all that welding.
I dealt with this on the front pump drive for my D17... I thought I had a picture here somewhere... yeah...
and here's the shaft I made to extend engine PTO out the front bolster:
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Don(MO)
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Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 11:54am |
This might help you with the oil pan and rear main seal when you get that far.
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3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep.
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sploke
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Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 12:05pm |
Don(MO) wrote:
This might help you with the oil pan and rear main seal when you get that far. |
Awesome, thank you!!
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 6:33pm |
Your going about it in the right way! One step at a time. Check things out. You will find the leak.
I was at this similar position a year ago. My leak/s were pretty obvious! Regards, Chris
Edited by Sugarmaker - 18 Jun 2019 at 6:34pm
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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WF owner
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Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 8:40pm |
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This is just my opinion, but I would rather find the link before installing a bunch of new parts and then finding there is a problem somewhere that the new parts didn't solve. Sometimes lessons are very expensive!!!
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sploke
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Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 10:32pm |
Don(MO) wrote:
This might help you with the oil pan and rear main seal when you get that far. |
Excellent video and super helpful, but you started to talk about the two different lengths of the flat cork gaskets for the oil pan ends, but never came back to it. What is the application difference between the two different sizes?
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sploke
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Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 10:46pm |
Got the motor mostly torn down tonight. I'm pretty confident I found the source of the leak - there was a significant amount of coolant on both sides of the head gasket between the coolant ports and the pushrods. It looks like it was leaking on one or both sides of the head gasket.
I'm rethinking my previous plan of replacing the sleeve o-rings. After doing some more research it looks like I'll need some sort of pulling tool to remove the sleeves. Based on the pressure test, I didn't see any leakage around the sleeves, so I'm thinking it might be better to leave well enough alone. From looking and feeling in the coolant paths and around the outside of the sleeves, I don't feel any corrosion or debris in there, so there may not be a compelling reason to mess with it.
Tried to get a pic of the wet coolant areas on the head, block and gasket. I have a lot of cleaning to do before I put those back together.
Also, I don't know what someone had against the poor crankshaft, but they did a serious number on the front of it for the hydro pump coupling. Several different dimples drilled in and some random weld beads that were sort of ground down. None of the three setscrews in the pulley were tight on the crankshaft, which wasn't helping the cause I'm sure.
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SteveM C/IL
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Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 11:10pm |
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Pretty sure the coolant mess is just a result of separating head from block. It drained out of the head when opened up. Gasket doesn't show signs of leaking from what I see.
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Sugarmaker
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Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 7:32am |
sploke, I probably cant help you at all other than ramble on? The leak, well you got one response that it may not be the head gasket. If not, then you have more work to do to find the problem?? Others can direct you better than me.
That crank end sure looks compromised. Are you going to continue to use this to drive a pump? If not maybe it can be repaired to at least get one good original type set screw. Mine did not have any set screw in it and it was holding enough to run the water pump and alternator just by friction.
Not sure about the different lengths of gaskets for the front and rear of the pan. I believe I only got one set in my 45 gasket kit. Don't cut the length. Put them inside a soup can to get them round. Get the clips to help hold the gaskets in place for installation too. well worth the $3 each.
You moving right along.
Regards, Chris
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D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Allis F-40 forklift, Allis CA, Allis D14, Ford Jubilee, Many IH Cub Cadets, 32 Ford Dump, 65 Comet.
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sploke
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Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 8:10am |
Thanks for the replies...if the leak is not likely coming from the head gasket, then I'm bewildered. The block looks to be in good shape, I don't see any cracks in the webs between the cylinder bores.
I've done the oil pan once before, but yes this time I will be getting the clips, and also doing it on the engine stand. That should be significantly easier than trying to do it all from the bottom of the engine, which is how I did it last time.
The rear main seal, where the major oil leak was, i dunno. The felt seals are in there but don't look like they were sealing very well, so hopefully redoing those will solve that issue. I'll follow the steps in the video Don posted, about making sure the top cap is flat and true and all that to set myself up for a good seal.
Sugarmaker, did you pull your engine sleeves? If so, how did you get them out and back in again?
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