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11-B Re-power Revisited |
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Lazyts
Orange Level Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Location: Manitoba Points: 627 |
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Posted: 05 Dec 2017 at 6:08pm |
Thinking of re-powering an 11-B with the 426 engine, just because parts are available for that size. I'm thinking the bell housing and flywheel will fit from the 11000, but not sure- does anybody know?
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8239 |
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Be a little under powered won't it? Doubt anything is common to those two engins
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 31061 |
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The 7G-B was a repower to the 3500 series engine. They had some issues and had to change the converter type but in all they worked well. Cannot see why it would not work for the 11B. I wonder if a GB converter could be had maybe the bellhousing and flywheel to make the conversion work simpler?
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R.KYLE
Bronze Level Joined: 01 Jun 2013 Points: 75 |
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MAYBE AC FOLKS DO NOT LIKE THIS BUT I AM REPLACING ENGINE IN HD11F WITH 471 DETROIT . PARTS FOR DETROIT EASY TO GET AND LESS MONEY.
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Coke-in-MN
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Afton MN Points: 41568 |
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Seems the Detroit power is the way to go - seen a 17 with a 8V-71 out in western MN - now that was a nice rig - they had street pads on it - rubber booties - and guy said his dad used it in a couple local parades - yes it had Chrome twin straight stacks on it .
A 6V-53 would also be a good power source : 6V n40 inj-172 hp @ 2800 rpm. With an N50 it is 210 HP. 53 T engine with 5C50 is rated at 230 ho @2800 rpm while 5C60 is rated at 280 @2500 rpm. Marine ratings are a little better: N engine w/ 40 inj is 148 @2400 rpm T engine with N75 is 320 @ 2800 rpm. Another section gives this: 6VN weigh's 1485 lbs with range of hp 160 to 210. 53T weigh's 1695 and is rated at 210 to 300. All these #'s are factory settings and a 'dry weight'.
Edited by Coke-in-MN - 09 Dec 2017 at 7:46pm |
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
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Steve allis dozer
Silver Level Access Joined: 10 Apr 2011 Location: Australia Points: 232 |
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Hi Lazyts
In Norms Allis industrial book on page 78 and page 268 it shows Allis did fit the 3500 engine in HD11 dozers for the Air force It was rated at 143 flywheel horsepower at 2050 rpm Regards steve
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Steve allis dozer
Silver Level Access Joined: 10 Apr 2011 Location: Australia Points: 232 |
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ROPS CANOPY WITH REAR WINCH, ALLIS CHALMER ENGINE WITH A SKIP, UNDERCARRIAGE 50%, NEW FRONT IDLER, HOUR METER NOT WORKING, NEW FRONT IDLER For Sale Price: USD $9,500 Serial Number: 82Y14790 Condition: Used Stock Number: 2132 |
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Steve allis dozer
Silver Level Access Joined: 10 Apr 2011 Location: Australia Points: 232 |
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Steve allis dozer
Silver Level Access Joined: 10 Apr 2011 Location: Australia Points: 232 |
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Trev
This one has the 3500 engine in it ?
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Lazyts
Orange Level Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Location: Manitoba Points: 627 |
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Yeah, Steve, looks like the one. I wonder if that is one of the units mentioned in the book- looks like it had a winch/ crane setup on the back, just like he wrote about? Would be from the right time period- 1970- looks good. I was thinking about re- powering my latest 11B with one of those, as the engine is seized, but I'm not sure if the rest of the tractor is worth the work now, might be better used as a donor.
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Steve allis dozer
Silver Level Access Joined: 10 Apr 2011 Location: Australia Points: 232 |
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Yes I think you are right ,on the pic with the sprocket there is green paint underneath the yellow and the left hand engine pic is green paint on the radiator brace ?
Mate I love the workshop pic Looks tidy and warm in there ! Its a hard call wether to fix or not sometimes she looks alright in the pic I think the 11000 engines are finished no more engine kits ect
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Lazyts
Orange Level Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Location: Manitoba Points: 627 |
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Yeah, the time for rebuilding those 11000s with new parts has come and gone, seems like. I put a combine engine in one, but they are no better for parts, actually worse in some ways, as there weren't that many made. There's lots of good parts on this one yet, I really like the "western style" canopy with the bull horn mounts- you can pull the radiator without messing with the sweeps. I want to use that canopy for sure, trying to decide whether to fix this one, thought of getting one of those standard shift ag crawlers and swapping over the hardnose and hydraulics... would make a real good tractor for a breaking disk.
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Tad Wicks
Orange Level Joined: 27 Mar 2011 Location: Shandon, CA Points: 2164 |
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I would look into the 6BT Cummins, you can buy gen 1 6BT 12 valve with the VC pump takeouts for little or nothing, it might be a bit small, capable of 300 horse 600 ft lbs of torque @ 3000 rpms, but I don't know what that would be at 1800rpms. The best thing would be the 6CT 8.3 Cummins, the 6BT's big brother, they too are plentiful. I believe that Cummins makes a kit to install an 8.3 in an 11 with a #2 SAE bell housing adapter. Don't worry about the "P'' injection pump, it is not necessary (don't let them fool you) unless you want to make 1400 HP, the VC pump is just as good if not better, cheaper, easier, it has an advance, and easy to rebuild if necessary, a very simple pump like the Roosa Master. I put the 6V-71 in my 11 (see my thread), had I not had the Detroit engine already I would have gone with the 8.3, it would make a killer tractor and parts will always be available and you won't need earplugs. Tad
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Lazyts
Orange Level Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Location: Manitoba Points: 627 |
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Yeah Tad, I've looked at those 8.3s, thought they would be perfect. I was working on a TD15E last summer, which has the Dresser 8.3 (Cummins), and you're right- they're pretty quiet. Problem is that I get too cheap to make one of those a reality. Number 6 rod bearing turned in the engine on this one.
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DMiller
Orange Level Access Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 31061 |
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Time to find a crank, a rod and rebuild!
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Tad Wicks
Orange Level Joined: 27 Mar 2011 Location: Shandon, CA Points: 2164 |
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That is bad but not as bad as spinning a main, it is repairable, I have welded journals that were too far under to clean up, One in an HD 6 an AC7000 wheel tractor and a John Deere 20 series I don't remember the correct model number but a four cylinder, and several Wisconsins and took them to the local grinder and had them ground, no problem with any of them but they were all rod journals. I have welded the thrust main on a small block chevy, turned it in the lathe to get it close and then had it ground as well. Why did it spin is the question. The motor has to come out but AC built these tractors so they are easy to work on, that is why I switched to AC. You will probably have more in a rebuild than a repower. Like I said 8.3 or even a DT466 they are very similar engines or an L10 Cummins a bit large but could be de-rated or if you want to go totally bonkers do this. Tad
http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/topic28788.html |
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Lazyts
Orange Level Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Location: Manitoba Points: 627 |
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I have an extra crank, still standard size, and I found a set of bearings on Ebay a while back, but the rest of the rebuild parts are scarce. The rod spun because the owner lent the machine to a neighbour, who dumped the machine face down into a ditch. The engine seized up, but later came free, at which point they dumped an extra pail of oil into the engine and started it again, with hopes of using the winch to free the tractor. Then she seized up again, this time for good.
I don't want a Detroit, but I have looked at a couple of 745C loaders with JD engines. A couple of local gravel outfits had them. The 945s were re-powered with 855 Cummins (and a 21C dozer as well), the 745s with 466 John Deere engines. I also saw an HD11 advertised with a JD engine some time ago. I'll probably go the rebuilt route, just because of the economy of using parts I already have. Story of my donor engine: Injection pump quit, (Roosa Master, I think the shaft broke) so owner had it repaired at considerable cost, then mechanic installed it one tooth off (injection pump turns as you install it due to diagonal gears). Owner knew something wasn't right, but was anxious to use it, so it ran for a few hours like that until it burned a hole through #4 piston. This is the machine that got the N7 engine. Edited by Lazyts - 29 Dec 2017 at 10:57am |
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jerbob
Orange Level Joined: 07 Aug 2017 Location: Michigan Points: 961 |
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Just curious but how plentiful are engine parts for the 16000 engine. I have a HD16DC. 5272 serial number making it a 1961. No internal issues that I know of but wondering how easy to get parts for the 16000.
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gemdozer
Orange Level Joined: 17 Sep 2009 Points: 987 |
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SHOULD'T BE BAD FOR PARTS
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walnut1
Bronze Level Joined: 11 Nov 2017 Location: California Points: 42 |
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I inquired about parts last month to rebuild a 10000 in an old 11S, everything was readily available except the main bearings.
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Dswall
Silver Level Joined: 11 Jan 2014 Location: Lindsay ca Points: 260 |
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I have a few sets of NOS main bearings if anyone needs a set.
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Dustin in CA
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Lazyts
Orange Level Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Location: Manitoba Points: 627 |
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Do you have the part number for the main bearings? Are they for the MK2 or for the earlier models?
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Lazyts
Orange Level Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Location: Manitoba Points: 627 |
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Time to do a full inspection and decide what to do...
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jerbob
Orange Level Joined: 07 Aug 2017 Location: Michigan Points: 961 |
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I sure wouldn't have the guts, tools, ability or knowledge to do this job. My hat is off to you and all of you whom dive in and do open heart surgery on these great pieces of history.
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7060
Orange Level Joined: 16 Sep 2009 Location: Missouri Points: 1148 |
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Agkits sells the main bearings in .10 over
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Dswall
Silver Level Joined: 11 Jan 2014 Location: Lindsay ca Points: 260 |
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Lazyts I’ll check bearings tomorrow. Do you have part numbers?
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Dustin in CA
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CAL(KS)
Orange Level Joined: 18 Sep 2009 Location: Chapman, KS Points: 3786 |
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unfortunately the 16000 is a bit of an oddball. they changed to the 1600H in 62 or so. the early 16000 has a 3 valve head instead of the 4 like later engines but that is no big issue, a later head can be installed. the issues are with the crank journals. 16000 has slightly smaller rod and main journals from the later 1600H and the connecting rods are slightly longer with a shorter piston comp height than later engines. 16000H and up use a bit shorter rod and a taller piston and a larger wrist pin. when I overhauled my 16000 engine I found a set of bearings in Puerto Rice after searching high and low. Pistons are not available so I reused mine, luckily they were still in spec. Installed new rings and sleeves. had wristpins oversized .010 and honed pin bushings and piston pin hole to fit. thankfully heads were redone not long before I got the machine. all this can be verified in your service manual by engine serial #. just take a look in the specifications/tolerances section
Edited by CAL(KS) - 04 Jan 2018 at 7:49am |
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Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20
Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
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Lazyts
Orange Level Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Location: Manitoba Points: 627 |
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The AC part number for the standard kit is 74322208. I think the Clevite number is MS1619P. Then the under sized ones would be MS1619P-10, -20 and so on.
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Lazyts
Orange Level Joined: 05 Feb 2012 Location: Manitoba Points: 627 |
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I can't find engine parts anywhere- the only thing I can find is the piston rings. Looks like I'm forced to do it on the cheap or abandon the engine. I've tried Agkits, Jobbers, Illini, Minnpar, etc.. everyone just says "obsolete"
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SteveM C/IL
Orange Level Access Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8239 |
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New pistons and sleeves can be made but are not cost effective.(unaffordable)
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