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MilesGray (CO/KS) 
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 Topic: Tearing apart my 1944 Allis C
Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 10:10am |
I am going to take apart the engine (in frame, I hope) of my C next week. I have no compression in cylinders 2, 3, or 4. I have never tried such a major project on my tractors before and know there are lots of things to consider. Unfortunately, I won't know exactly what is wrong until I open it up. I took the Valve cover off and spun the engine, and the valves, while loose, seem to be operating correctly, which leads me to think that maybe all I have to do is check the sleeves and replace the rings on the pistons. i will also have to replace the front Cam Gear as the exploding governor also broke a couple of teeth on it.
It is a wide front C or a B/C FrankenAllis. I can find evidence to support either, but the engine on the front does not have a spot for a pedestal and has the B wishbone front. I am unable to see the engine serial number because of the paint, and the fact that as long as it ran, I really didn't care...
In light of the above, I ordered the 3 7/16 rings for the tractor, if they are not the right size, I have 4 other tractors, 3 of which ar B's that they should fit.
I really don't want to make this into a huge winter project, but I would like all of you to give me some feedback as to what else I might be forgetting/in for, as I start this?
It does have Hydraulics and and L306 Woods Deck on it that I will have to take off.
I will be posting before, during and after pictures for everyone's pleasure :-)
Thanks in Advance,
Miles
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Miles Gray (CO/KS)
5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy!
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Brian Jasper co. Ia
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Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 10:19am |
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You might just have valve problems. The head is easy to pull. The front engine cover does not have dowel pins to locate it properly. If the cover is not centered correctly, the front crank seal will probably leak. According to the manual there is a special tool that goes in place of the seal to center the cover, then you install a new seal. When I overhauled my CA engine, when I ran into the needing the special tool, I installed the new seal in the cover and then stood the engineup on the flywheel and let the new seal position the cover. 15 years later, it has not leaked a drop. You got to pull the front steering off to remove the cover, from there it's only 4 bolts that hold the engine to the torque tube.
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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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MilesGray (CO/KS)
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Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 10:55am |
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The steering is set up low like a B, it was sold to me as being a B, at the time, I knew just enough about Allis Chalmers tractors to be dangerous... lol. Would I still need to remove the steering? It looks like I could just leave it on there and pull the front cover after removing the radiator, etc...
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Miles Gray (CO/KS)
5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy!
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JohnCO
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Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 11:06am |
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Miles, I was wondering what had become of you and the sick tractor. I'm also thinking it is a valve timing problem as you mentioned the teeth broke on the cam gear. It would be easier to pull off the steering arm at one end or the other so you can get the front end out of the way. Are you working on it here or in KS? I might be able to give you a hand if it's in Colorado. As for the rings, I'd check the head/valve timing first and if that's the problem, check the piston gap/cylinder condition before putting more time and money into it. That is if it ran ok before and didn't burn oil.
My 3 cents!
P.S. You should come by and see my "new" B.
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"If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer"
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MilesGray (CO/KS)
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Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 11:18am |
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John, it's in KS... seemed it would be cheaper to work on it there, and I have more room to work... It ran OK before I blew up the governor, I put a new governor on it and then put the spark plug wires on 1234 instead of 1243 and started it... once I figured out what I had done, I changed the wires. It then ran but sounded like it was only running on 1 cylinder... and oil was blowing out of the exhaust. If I put any load on it, other than just moving it, it would die. When I checked compression, I had great compression on no. 1 and no compression on 2, 3, or 4.
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Miles Gray (CO/KS)
5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy!
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Dick L
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Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 11:18am |
You might as well get in your mind and make plans to remove the engine. If you have teeth gone on the camshaft gear it probly skipped a tooth or two and that would cause you not to have compression because of valves being open on the compression stroke. The camshaft gear is pressed on and will have to be pulled to remove the gear. Not having the engine will upside down while pulling the camshaft woud take eight hands where there is only room for one reaching up from the bottom to hold the tappets/lifters up out of the way while moving the camshaft forward.
Your rings and valves (could be fine) with the stripped camshaft gear. If they werre not a problem before the governor gave out they should not be a problem now. A good time to check everything while it is open though.
Edited by Dick L - 17 Nov 2010 at 11:20am
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MilesGray (CO/KS)
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Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 11:22am |
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OR I could just spend 600.00 and buy another C that runs... lol
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Miles Gray (CO/KS)
5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy!
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JohnCO
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Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 11:42am |
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There you go Miles! One can never have too many tractors, especially if they're AC's.
I agree with DickL on pulling the engine but perhaps you should just pull the head and see what everything looks like. If you aren't real attached to that tractor it might make sense to just sell if without the mower and put the mower on another of your fleet or as you suggest, buy another C. If you do repair your C at least you will know the condition of the engine and if the rest of the tractor is good, you still have a fairly inexpensive tractor. And think of all the new experiences you will get by working on the engine! I have several swear words I can pass along that I learned while stationed in Greece and Germany, although your lady friend probably knows the German ones. LOL
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"If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer"
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Dick L
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Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 11:55am |
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Removing the engine is not a big deal. It is a lot easier with an engine lift but if you have a jack, blocking along with a rope and pulley you can get it done. The engine is not all that heavy. Well it might be if you would only weigh a hundred pounds or so. Or 72 like I am now. I useta lift one of those engines from one bench to another.
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MilesGray (CO/KS)
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Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 2:26pm |
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Would you suggest a cherry picker or one that I can bolt the engine on, I guess if I'm into it as far as I am looking at, I just as well do it all... I know it has never had the power that my "new" 48 has off the trailer... how would it lose compression in 3 of the 4 cylinders if I was able to get it started when I timed it after I replaced the governor? At that point I hadn't done anything except replace the governor and time it.
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Miles Gray (CO/KS)
5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy!
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MilesGray (CO/KS)
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Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 2:27pm |
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And John... I know those words too... also in Dutch! lol
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Miles Gray (CO/KS)
5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy!
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David Gibson (OH)
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Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 2:29pm |
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I've used a loader tractor to split the enigine from the torque tube. A good engine stand will make things a lot easier.
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Dick L
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Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 3:12pm |
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MilesGray (CO/KS)
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Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 3:44pm |
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Thank you Dick! those really help!
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Miles Gray (CO/KS)
5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy!
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Chalmersbob
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Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 9:28pm |
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Unless your engine was rebuilt, it will have 3 3/8" pistons in it. I find it's best to tear something apartr before I order parts. That way I can see what I have and what I will need, My book shows 2 different ring sets for the CE125 engine. Bob
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JohnCO
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Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 12:56am |
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If you find you don't have a use for the rings, I have a project they will fit.
For pulling the engine, if you have a strong beam in the ceiling of your shop/barn, you can use a chain fall (Harbor Freight has fairly cheap ones) While you're there, buy an engine stand so you can work on it easier and turn it over to pull the cam. When you timed it, I think you just timed the ignition. With broken teeth on the cam gear, the timing is going to be off on the valves so they are open when they should be closed.
The engine is one of the easiest engines to work on, much simpler then even an old car and kind of fun to work on. You will need a torque wrench when reassembling the head. Don't worry, there is plenty of free advice on this site to steer you in the right direction.
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"If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer"
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MilesGray (CO/KS)
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Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 9:53am |
Update...
I opened iit up last week and replaced parts as well as timed the valves. I replaced the timing gear and checked the valves by hand cranking to make sure they all opened and closed correctly. After I got it all back together, I still had no compression in cylinders 2, 3 and 4. Starting Friday, I will be spliting the Tractor and really pulling the engine apart... I did not remove the head last time, just replaced the timing gear and put the parts back together. Does anyone know why I would get good compression in number one cylinder (25-27 psi) and no compression at all in the other three?
I believe the engine has been worked on before and rings were replaced when I got the engine unstuck.
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Miles Gray (CO/KS)
5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy!
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 10:09am |
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25 psi is way down from "good" compression on #1.
A really bad head gasket connecting 2, 3, and 4 could keep them from showing compression. Or a really badly cracked head.
Gerald J.
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MilesGray (CO/KS)
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Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 12:09pm |
Thanks Gerald. I will be checking the head when I open the engine up, and I have a replacement head to use if I need too... or the whole engine if necessary... hope that's not the case though... I only have one engine stand! lol...
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Miles Gray (CO/KS)
5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy!
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JimD
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Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 12:20pm |
I'm with Gerald on this one. Sounds pretty severe to have zero compression on 3 and almost that on the 4th. Have you set the valve lash? Set too tight, and you will got no compression. Make sure the rockers are letting the valves fully close. Back them off a bit and take a reading again.
I'm a bit confused. How did you replace rings without pulling the head (maybe I'm just reading it wrong).
JimD
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MilesGray (CO/KS)
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Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 12:45pm |
Jim,
First, thank you for the parts I got from you a couple of weeks ago.
The rings were replaced by a mechanic when I took it in to have it unstuck, that was about a year ago... I have not changed the rings personally... I guess I wasn't very clear on that point.
Also, the extra engine I have is a 116 ci engine and wouldn't work on the C very well... :-(
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Miles Gray (CO/KS)
5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy!
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MilesGray (CO/KS)
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Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 12:49pm |
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I have not set the valve lash, nor have I touched the valves other than to set the valve clearance...
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Miles Gray (CO/KS)
5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy!
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DREAM
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Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 5:37pm |
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The 116 engine will work fine. My C has a 116 CI distillate(low compression) engine from an early B in it, and I brush hog, disc, cultivate, and wil be trying a 2 bottom plow soon. Granted, it doesn't have the power that my dad's C with the correct engine does, but it hasn't bogged down yet, even brush hogging in thick grass and getting into the soft stuff with the disc, it still has power to spare. It will spin out before stalling. Just my 2 cents. If you have a "good" engine, it would be cheap to put that in there.
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JohnCO
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Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 1:12am |
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Miles, a good engine should have at least 100 PSI of compression. Something is really wrong and I still think it has to do with the valves or valve timing.
Come by sometime and see my "new" B with an adjustable wishbone front axle. Got to get it unstuck too. Finished with farmers markets for the year, now I can work on important stuff!
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"If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer"
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Thad in AR.
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Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 5:57am |
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Miles if I have read this post correctly I think you have a head or timing problem not rings. I'd do like Jim D says and back the valves off and try again. How did you change the timing gear? Is there a chance he bent valves (interference engine) with the valve timing off? I don't think it would even start on 25 lbs. compresson.
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Gary in Texas
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Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 7:51am |
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going to have to do it anyway, pull the rocker shaft off, then run a compression check. That way you should have all of the valves closed. Look to see if the valve stems look to be close to the same height and listen for air blowing out the exhaust / intake while cranking the engine.
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MilesGray (CO/KS)
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Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 9:41am |
Thad - Yes, I am sure I have a timing problem... what started this whole thing was an exploding governor that took the teeth off the middle timing gear and caused everything to go out of whack when it allowed the cam to skip a couple of those teeth. Somewhere I have a video of the tractor running after I replaced the governor, but before I knew about the missing teeth on the timing gear. It was only running on number one and blowing oil out the other three. Probably really screwed it up, but I don't think anything is bent internally, as I am still able to hand crank the engine.
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Miles Gray (CO/KS)
5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy!
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Gerald J.
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Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 11:12am |
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Compression test won't work without opening the intake valves. Gotta start the compression stroke with a full cylinder of air.
There could very well be bent valves in all cylinders from bad cam shaft timing and pistons striking valves, then they won't close tight and seal. Some engines have enough space pistons and valves won't collide, most modern engines don't. I don't know about the C.
Gerald J.
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GlenninPA
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Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 11:39am |
I don't think the 125 head lets the valve that far into the cylinder, there is quite a chamber up top. (Unless you really shaved the head)....
Dick L. could probably tell us the particulars, as he has messed with these heads a whole lotta different ways though. Just my opinion, never measured it for sure...
Edited by GlenninPA - 07 Dec 2010 at 11:40am
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sks72107
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Posted: 07 Dec 2010 at 11:41am |
When i first got my d17, i ran a compression check. one cylinder had 0psi. Pulled the head to find it had dropped a valve seat, perhaps the c doesnt have seats, idk. But my tractor also had blown govenor weights, which in turn; bent 4 push rods, broke teeth on 2 gears, busted bottom lip on front cover, bottom end of motor chewed most of this up requiring a replacement crank. So rebuild it totally once, and rebuild it right.
Shannon
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