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soggybottomboy ![]() Silver Level Access ![]() Joined: 20 Feb 2018 Location: Iowa Points: 206 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 07 Apr 2022 at 4:55pm |
Well, I guess I am smart enough to know that I am not THE sharpest utensil in the drawer. With the price of road diesel 90 cents per gallon higher than gasoline with 10 percent ethanol it got me to thinking. Is it possible to mix ethanol with diesel fuel, or does it settle out? Even if only 5% ethanol was mixed in, at least it would increase the supply and maybe diesel would be a little cheaper. Would it be detrimental to diesel engines at that level? It looks like renewable diesel is going to be a big deal in the future, but that is a couple of years away yet.
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DMiller ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 33121 |
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Ethanol as Gasoline are solvent fuels, Diesel is a oil fuel, Ethanol and Diesel do not do well together. Alcohol is introduced in Diesel to reduce free water in the fuel, add too much and you affect the Cetane Rating. Diesel burnability is rated as Cetane, not Octane as Gas.
Edited by DMiller - 07 Apr 2022 at 5:03pm |
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FREEDGUY ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5396 |
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To Soggy, there are NO stupid questions, just the answers from "several" on here (and they aren't "answers" just ridicule, this time, Miller is onto something
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DiyDave ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Gambrills, MD Points: 53251 |
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diesel has biodiesel as the analog to ethanol in gas. Both are valueless, in my view, once you figure in the harm they do to engines... ![]() And Mr Blobby, Did you get that truck, yet?
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Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 85474 |
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Biodiesel is a renewable, biodegradable fuel manufactured domestically from vegetable oils, animal fats, or recycled restaurant grease
as mentioned above, gasoline and alcohol are SOLVENTS... You need some type of OIL to add to diesel to get more "volume" ........ can be oil from CORN or BEANS, but not refined to ALCOHOL..
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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soggybottomboy ![]() Silver Level Access ![]() Joined: 20 Feb 2018 Location: Iowa Points: 206 |
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Well, I figured maybe the 2 fuels were not very compatible because people would be doing it otherwise, and I have never heard of it being done. Some of these alcohol burning engines have a pretty high compression ratios, almost as high as diesel engines. There was an article in one of the farm magazines that I get awhile back that work was being done to modify truck engines to burn straight ethanol, and the power was about the same as diesel. I guess with corn at seven dollars ethanol is probably not cheap either. I don't know what the breakeven would be for ethanol production right now.
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Joe(TX) ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Weatherford. TX Points: 1682 |
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If you added gas to the diesel you would have a lot of engine knock. I may not even start because of preignition.
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1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A
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jaybmiller ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Greensville,Ont Points: 24335 |
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I think think the only way you can 'win' against 'them' is to become more efficient at using the fuel. If possible plan the best way to plow a field, best speed for economy, shut tractor/truck off when not using, clean air filters often, reduce weight ? if, IF, there was some 'magic elixar' to get more MPG either the guy selling it would be filthy rich or mysteriously die. BTW, diesel is 30c more per liter now ( 1.90 vs 1.60 for gas ), so $1.20 higher.
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3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112
Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
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Les Kerf ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 08 May 2020 Location: Idaho Points: 1050 |
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The trouble with ethanol as currently produced in the US is EROEI (Energy Returned On Energy Invested).
The total energy required to produce the seed, transport the seed, till the soil in preparation for planting, plant the seed, produce the fertilizer (chemicals, etc.) transport the chemicals, apply the chemicals, irrigate the crop, harvest the crop, transport the crop, process it into ethanol, transport the ethanol, etc, etc. I'm sure I left some things out, and this doesn't take into account the energy costs of producing/replacing the trucks and equipment involved in this complex process. The entire process is a net energy loser, requiring more energy to produce than it returns to the system. This energy deficit is replaced by inputting energy from the so-called fossil fuels. Remember, I am NOT referring to money (dollars, pesos, rubles, yuan, etc.) but rather energy. The same principle applies to wind and solar energy. We cannot continue to run a net energy loss indefinitely. |
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soggybottomboy ![]() Silver Level Access ![]() Joined: 20 Feb 2018 Location: Iowa Points: 206 |
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Yes, I agree Les. Without oil, we would have total poverty, and probably the world would not be able to support half the people that are living now. But unfortunately the manufacturers have to obey the governments rules.
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DaveKamp ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5957 |
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As you pointed out, compression ratio in alcohol engines can be substantially higher, and you'll see that there's many 'performance' diesels (truck and tractor pullers) who use a diesel as basis for an extreme-output alcohol-burning puller engine. What they've done, is converted the diesel platform to spark-ignition.... taking advantage of the basic geometry, strong components, mebbie make the pistons lighter, get the RPM up, and give it as much boost, and feed as much alcohol in, as they can. From a volume and weight perspective, diesel fuel has MUCH more available energy in a given volume or weight, than any alcohol or gasoline, but you can't just throw some other fuel in, because the autoignition PRESSURE of other fuels, will not be at the same general point as diesel, the expansion pressure, and burn velocity won't be the same... and of course, diesel injection pumps and injectors are built around the lubricity, cooling action, and spray dispersion character of diesel's viscocity... so putting something thinner in there, is like putting a gallon of acetone in your car's oil pan... thins it out beyond ability to protect the contact surfaces. Multifuel engines (like the Hercules JXLD-relatives) were made for military/governmental contracts, and were frequently based on multi-mode blocks, as well as a Kubota engine, and a few others, where the bottom end was made for diesel, but the top end could be fitted with either a diesel or spark-ignition head. Engines 'built' to be multi-fuel field capable would be fitted with spark-ignition, and actually burn diesel fuel using spark-ignition as if it were gasoline. The Kerosine/Distillate/Tractor Fuel concept is same- a heavier oil, once brought up to high enough temperature, with a warm enough combustion chamber, WILL run. It won't be as thermally efficient, nor as clean-burning, as if it were running compression-ignition, but it'll RUN. To determine if ti's actually worthwhile, it must be assessed under an 'economic' perspective. "Kerosene/Distillate/Tractor Fuel" operation was economically sensible at the time it was most popular... those fuels were, at that time, extremely common, and comparatively inexpensive fuel oils used for all sorts of stoves, lamps, and heaters. Gasoline, in comparison, was a 'byproduct' mostly limited to 'dry cleaning' clothes, and extremely volatile in comparison to the higher flashpoint Kerosenes... so starting cold engines on gasoline, then switching to kerosenes was economically viable, even though the heavier fuel's output power was less than it's much-more-volatile brother. One of the reasons why it was cheap to do this, is because natural gas pipelines and electric utility distribution were really taking off... those lamp oils were being discarded in lieu of light-bulbs, gas stoves, and gas furnaces. There was a high volume of light oils in the market, but a dwindling demand, so price was low, and farmers took advantage of it. But over more time, technology continued in change, and the operating cost, safety, and convenience of gasoline motor fuel improved, while demand for Kero/distillate fell. The OP's original thread started about cost, and in today's circumstance, there aren't any liquid fuel sources available in worthy volumes, that currently offer a significant cost advantage, in a practical use method.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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Joe(TX) ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Weatherford. TX Points: 1682 |
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This post has gone i a lot of directions.
The short answer is that mixing other fuels in a diesel will destroy the diesel engine. That mean you will cost yourself a lot more money. Stick worth the fuel that it was designed for.
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1970 190XT, 1973 200, 1962 D-19 Diesel, 1979 7010, 1957 WD45, 1950 WD, 1961 D17, Speed Patrol, D14, All crop 66 big bin, 180 diesel, 1970 170 diesel, FP80 forklift. Gleaner A
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NEVER green ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Location: MN. Points: 8179 |
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Multiple people are using reclaimed oil, drained engine, tranny, hydraulic then cutting it with gasoline for their diesels. They claim it works great, I was curious about how the gas would affect the engines?? Havent seen anything negative on it yet.
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2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040 R50
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SteveM C/IL ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Location: Shelbyville IL Points: 8471 |
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I try to be frugle but the old dirty oil plus gasoline? Not in any engine I own.
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Tom59 ![]() Bronze Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 27 Feb 2021 Location: Lebanon Tenness Points: 155 |
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I think you got it right, regardless what fuel, what fuel mixture, we got to be more efficient as much as we can. I now we going to use so much fuel for certain farming operations that unavoidable like putting up hay there certain amount of operations across the field. |
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DMiller ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Location: Hermann, Mo Points: 33121 |
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Had Multifuel engines designed for that in the Military, ran great on Straight Gas or Diesel, mixed with anything else would run but not good, could use to fog for Skeeters or to oil roads was about all was good for. Know several that burn waste oil for supplemental shop heaters, have to filter the snot and debris out then try to thin some to get flowing and with a combustible additive to get cooking but delivers good heat just dirty as all get out.
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tadams(OH) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 Sep 2009 Location: Jeromesville, O Points: 10609 |
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A guy around here was using used cooking oit from deep friers in his diesel pickup
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Alberta Phil ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 13 Sep 2009 Location: Alberta, Canada Points: 3882 |
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Friend of mine here has been running his VW diesel for years on used french fry oil and seems to run fine, except in winter he mixes it 50/50 with regular diesel. He's given me several jugs full that I've run in my '92 F250 and it seemed to run same as always.
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DougG ![]() Orange Level ![]() Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Location: Mo Points: 8246 |
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Id be in the market for a VW PICKUP if he wants to sell
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FREEDGUY ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5396 |
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There are NO STUPID questions IMO !! The replies to a question by "upper echelon" can either get you an honest answer , OR, "GOOGLE IT " yourself reply
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DiyDave ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: Gambrills, MD Points: 53251 |
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Maybe we should rephrase. There are no stupid questions, except yours, Mr Blobby!
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Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need!
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FREEDGUY ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5396 |
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Who is "WE"?? I'm pretty sure I know though
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Tbone95 ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 31 Aug 2012 Location: Michigan Points: 11964 |
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If a diesel runs decent on cooking oil, waste oil, etc or not depends a lot on whether it’s a direct injection or indirect injection design. A workmate bought an old POS Mercedes during the last fuel price debacle and did a lot of experimenting with different fuel. He settled on waste oil from the plant, because it was FREE. As I recall, he’d dilute the oil with a small amount of acetone to get the viscosity down some. He ran it until it rusted to pieces that way.
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Unit3 ![]() Orange Level ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 Oct 2009 Location: NC Iowa Points: 5571 |
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One time, dad forgot and put red diesel into a 200 gallon gas barrel. Then he caught his mistake and we were left with 80 gallons of mix. I put it though the 880 Oliver on the auger. 5 gallon of mix then filled the tank.
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2-8070FWA PS/8050PS/7080/7045PS/200/D15-II/2-WD45/WD/3-WC/UC/C
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 85474 |
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FreeGas.... it ALWAYS has to be about YOU.. doesn't it ???
Yes, there ARE STUPID QUESTIONS.....some questions you can just google, but SUPID IS --what color is the BLUE OVAL on my truck ? --why do i have to stop at RR crossing and wait for the train ? --why do motorcycle riders ALWAYS cut me off ? YES........... there are STUPID QUESTIONS... Then there are others you can get INFORMATION if you use YOU TUBE or GOOGLE........... OR, you can ask here to get a BETTER or ADDITIONAL Information / Opinions.
Edited by steve(ill) - 10 Apr 2022 at 4:23pm |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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FREEDGUY ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 15 Apr 2017 Location: South West Mich Points: 5396 |
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No , IT'S YOU AND YOURS that make "light" of my questions !! Where did I EVER inquire about the "color" of the Ford OVAL ?? ,where did I ever inquire about "having to stop" at RR crossings ???, Never said "BIKERS" cut-me -off, just tailgate my ass !!! |
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steve(ill) ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Sep 2009 Location: illinois Points: 85474 |
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YEP........... your ALWAYS RIGHT !!!
![]() Edited by steve(ill) - 10 Apr 2022 at 5:58pm |
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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DaveKamp ![]() Orange Level Access ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Apr 2010 Location: LeClaire, Ia Points: 5957 |
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The original Diesel engine didn't run on 'Diesel Fuel'... there was no such thing... Herr Rudolf just called it a "Compression-Ignition Heat Engine"... And he ran it on vegetable oil. There are two reasons why it became popular: 1) It was substantially more thermally efficient than spark-ignition engines of the same era (his was upwards of 25% thermally efficient). 2) Totally mechanical in operation. Spark ignition engines depended on electricity, which was not 'highly reliable' at that time. While he preferred Veg oil, it was clear that it would run on any number of other liquids, as long as they were combustible AND... had an autoignition pressure and temperature that the engine's compression could attain. The only reason 'modern' stuff has any issues, is contamination, lubricity, and viscoscity... biogoo, water, ice, and very thin, low-flaspoint (high volatiles) are the biggest concern. Flexibility in compression-ignition is all about being very tolerant of contaminants, and very 'thinned out' fuels. Low-flashpoint concentrations will ignite WAY too early, which is hard on the engine in obvious ways.
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Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
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