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Sugarmaker View Drop Down
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Location: Albion PA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Shop Talk
    Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 8:03am
Folks,
 So I am getting more serious about building a structure on the property to store some of the items (toys) I have accumulated. Also to maybe have a shop in a portion of the new building to do more tinkering with old stuff.

I have picked out a spot that seems to make sense from a proximity to other structures the driveways and the utilities. In other words its in close walking distance from the house and sugarhouse. Actually in between them and in front of them towards the road.

Just thought I would get some ideas from folks, of what they would do different if they had choice on a building that they use for similar things.

Since I am not needing the building to make a living from and not independently wealthy cost will always be a factor. I believe I will go with pole building type construction. 

This project is a little too big for me to build by my self in a timely fashion. So the current plan is that I will pay someone to get it up and then maybe I will do some of the finishing work. 

Comments are always welcome. There are a lot of good ideas on here. Pictures are always welcome. And If I do get this going. I will post some pictures (probably too many) along the way.
Regards,
 Chris




Edited by Sugarmaker - 01 Aug 2020 at 12:50am
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HD6GTOM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HD6GTOM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 8:27am
I have had 2 independant contractors put up buildings I bought from Menards. They make a good product. I am adding on an open fronted addition to the honey/food processing shed this summer. Cement is poured, poles set. Next year I want to add an open fronted shed to park the tractors and hay equipment. Good luck with your investment.
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Dusty MI View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dusty MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 8:59am
I've been very happy with Morton buildings. First building was a 36x36 shop/garage, then added on two different times.
Then we moved, and had Morton build me a new shop.
I've always finished the inside including insulation.
If you go that way, get back with me and I'll tell how I did the inside finish/insulation.

Good Luck,
Dusty
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steve(ill) View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 9:00am
WE have a couple sheds with dirt or gravel floors where the tractors park.. Saves cost... It is nice to have concrete where you work/ shop... Long skinny sheds were tractors are parked in a row are a pain if you want the FRONT tractor out.. Put a door at both ends, or even better park the tractors side by side facing OUT... We have a shed like that without doors.. Open on one side. works great and you can move anything out without bothering others.. Cheaper and you can box in LATER if you ever want.  Smallest shed is 50 x 20 ft deep... 5 bays 10 ft wide open on that front.. 12 ft TALL opening.. Works good for CASE Hoe, FORD 75 HP tractor, Bobcat, couple mowers, and oil / parts / ladder/ cable rack at back wall.

Edited by steve(ill) - 09 Apr 2020 at 9:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 9:06am
1st ... it's already too small ! LOL

Ok, serious stuff
Install PEX in the concrete floor. While you may not use it for a year or two, it's THERE when you want it.
Install 36" wide mandoors, both ends.
On the south side , add windows, or at least frame for them. Natural light is great,specially midwinter.
Insulate, wall, then add electrical using conduit. put quad receptacles everywhere ! Quads, cheap to install allow for light, extension cord,drills AND chargers without 'extension bars' .
height ? 16' is real nice, cost about same as 14' BUT you'll get a real useful mezzanine out of those extra 2'.
have windows above the garage doors, again more natural light is great
have 3 way light switches at BOTH mandoors
if possible , make a 'mechanical' room to house air compressor, furnace, etc.
I'm sure others will add to the list !!


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Sugarmaker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 11:15am
Thanks guys,
Funny I was thinking the same thing about gravel portion for tractors to set. These  tractors all seem to leak!
I always appreciate theses suggestions on projects. It makes me think about lots of good options. Of course I have some of the details/ specs in my head but I really should get back in the saddle and sketch this up on a CAD system. Maybe Google sketch up?
Pex in the floor is one of the things I have considered. I don't have costs on all the features but staying comfortable in our climate sure would be nice.
Quad outlets might be the way to go. I have the electrical stopping by this after noon for very preliminary review of main power options from the road.
I have heard you can never be big enough many times! Trying to really think about that up front too!
Yes some windows for natural light too.
Not sure I can afford a Morton Building but they are nice! Any idea approx cost per sq foot for a Morton building?
Tom, Investment or just another way to spend the kids inheritance?
At my age is this type of thing/project just a foolish old man with a kids brain?

Regards,
 Chis
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boss Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 12:47pm
I priced a Morton 48 X 96 partitioned with one half insulated in Feb. With 18' sidewalls they quoted $122,000. That doesn't include concrete floor or electrical. Does include 2  14 x 14 overheads, a 10 x 10 overhead, and 3 36" service doors. Don't know what the difference in labor cost is out east though. Told me the building would be up in about 2 weeks time. No way I could get it up that fast. Your back and knee's will thank you for putting the in floor heat in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DanWi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 1:58pm
In a friends shop they put a 48" man door between the shop and the cold storage area I kind a like that. We have a 10'x10' insulated sliding door that we made in ours with the idea we could get stuff from the cold to the shop without going outside but once there is stuff packed in front of it that dont happen. Put in a drain and running water, we just have a hydrant in the shop, friends that built after ours all have sinks. Dont use your shop for storage our shop struggles to be a shop we have accumulated too much crap. And have a plan for what you want in it and what you want to do because you can overfill a shop getting  every welder lathe press drill press and milling machine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tadams(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 2:17pm
I first put up a 24' X 40' open to the east dirt floor, I didn't put in any heat, came back a few year later and added another 10' in width and 20 more feet in length and cemented the whole area and then I added five 8' overhead doors and 1 8' overhead door. the first 24' X 40' I had the Amish build the addition a buddy the retired from that kinda work and I put up. I had amish come in and do the cement. I then added the doors myself. At time it would be nice to have insulated and heat a couple of the bays but that's not going to happen now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dusty MI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 3:18pm
The in floor heat is great if you are using it every day. But if only part time then the radiant 4" tube hanging about 8' from the floor is real nice. They burn LP/natural gas. I set the t-stat around 45- 50 for the winter and turn up to 60 when working in the shop.
This is my second shop I've used this type of heat. 

Dusty
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cabinhollow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 3:55pm
All your doors need to be 48".
I have 12' side walls and wish they were 16'.
My one roll up door is 24', anything under 16', is to small for a shop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 4:22pm
My shop is too small, was big enough to repair the 7G, to construct the grain truck but was seriously lacking room. 30' deep, 48' long, 12' ceiling and 10' doors. Needed to be 40x80 at this point and 16' ceiling height with 14' doors. Man doors mean squat unless use them for materials 3/0 doors are fine to walk in and out, otherwise use the overhead doors. Sliding pole barn doors leak air like a screen door, do not seal to the floor, always cold wet or hot, do not dissuade critters that eat on wiring, destroy insulation and in general make a mess everywhere you do not want it. Concrete floor, 6" poor with perimeter frost wall, stick built Not pole built, or go red iron building for strength and structural integrity. Fully insulate the ENTIRE structure, do not squabble or go cheap as the end result is costing more to work in it, for lighting, heating, keeping other materials controlled.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DiyDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 5:47pm
1 they're all too small.

2 unless they're round, there is always sh!t in the corners.

3 if you pour a concrete floor, make sure you put a sheet of plastic, under the pour, cause in humid weather concrete with no vapor barrier= rusty sh!t in the corners!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 6:37pm
Wow Lots of great suggestions and ideas and also some, wish I had made things different related to buildings. 
Today we talked preliminary electric service and options with Nic (grandson) my electrician. Monday the electric company engineer is coming to meet with me to review options. I will be bringing all the power for the house and sugarhouse through the new building. At least that is the current plan.
New 200 amp service entrance into the shop, could go under ground or overhead, then underground to the house and then to the sugarhouse. 

My current 2 car attached garage has been insulated in the ceiling and walls and it sure does make a difference when its cold or hot. Well worth the investment.

Regards,
 Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 09 Apr 2020 at 6:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jaybmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 6:55pm
Given the choice, go 100% underground for hydro ! You'll NEVER have to worry about tree branches taking out power. See about $$ for 400A service, 200 for shop/shack, 200 for house. Yes, it's more upfront $$, BUT a onetime cost. We all would hate to hear you say, dang I need another 100A...2 years from now.....and it costing 3X today's price.
Also start a BOOK ! Put prices, names, numbers in it.That way you can compare and decide based on facts not 'well I though he said.......'.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve(ill) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 7:17pm
Well, you got a dozen different ideas... They range from $15K to $125K .......... i guess the MAIN question is What SIZE and COST "range" are you thinking ?  If your 40 years old and got another 40 years to work in it, it is different than if your 70 and part time working ! .............. or are you planning ahead for kids / grandkids to take over ?

Edited by steve(ill) - 09 Apr 2020 at 7:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 7:20pm
Jay,
 Great suggestions. I will find out about the 400 amp service. A neighbor did that in his new garage a couple years ago.  My current 200 amp service in the house is full. Makes sense to at least get costs. Book is good idea too!
 Regards,
 Chris
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cabinhollow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 8:03pm
I have 400 amp in my shop.
Also, each plug has it own breaker and most have a switch inline before the plug.
I have a light at each station. If the light is on, you have powder to that tool.
I also, have 6- 220 volt plugin, all with their own breakers.
At times I may have a welder, plasma cutter, air compressor, drill press, powder coating oven and bandsaw running at the same time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sherman Farms Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2020 at 11:03pm
Here in Ohio we have several Amish builders of pole buildings that are priced a lot cheaper than a Morten building.We put up a 60x136x16 with 6 inches of concrete over 2 inches of insulation,heat in the floor,overhead door,led lighting for $89,000. No insulation in the walls and ceiling yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AC7060IL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 12:01am
Designate high ceiling shop floor space for equipment projects ONLY.

Addon a 8-10’ tall x 25’ wide leantoo adjacent to long side of shop for tool room, welding, & paint booth etc..wash bay? Give leantoo better lighting, heat, air, & proper ventilation. If leantoo budget allows, build a break room with sink/refrigerator/microwave and bathroom. Also closet the air compressor for reduced noise.

Cart all tools, welder, parts, jacks, wood blocks into shop as needed. Pipe compressed air to each shop exit door making it ‘s quick coupler hose hookup readily available inside or outdoors. Stand overhead crane/hoist to the side of main shop door so crane can pivot outdoors or inside. It could lift items from outdoor truck & swing them inside over equipment in bay nearest door. Forget the stand crane if you have a forklift. But enable forklift to enter/exit leantoo tool room/welding/paint booth/wash bay as necessary. Park the forklift inside the leantoo.

Edited by AC7060IL - 10 Apr 2020 at 12:13am
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FBI' are fair on price.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 10:47am
Folks,
 I like the idea of the lean to. I am a lean to kind of guy. So I talk with folks and they say it is more cost effective to put the entire area under one roof. I understand both ideas. on one hand its cost effective to just build one building. On the other its nice to have seperate areas to house and hold things where you can close the door or get away from a project, or to contain things like paint and noise too. Good suggestions on power options.
So many projects so little time!:)
And if my body could only do half of what my brain thinks I can I would be way ahead!

It seems a lot of things will be in slow motion on a project like this now. Even the gravel folks are not hauling. Courthouse is almost shut down so paper work may take a while. 
Maybe that will give me some time to sort things out as we move through this spring.

One thing is that this is not a building that is farm related. More of a toy box/ workshop.
Would like to have a bay to get my pickup in, then several tractors, OK 7 of the big ones and several small lawn tractors too. 
The shop needs are, solid work bench, place for basic tools,  I have torches, two welders, small sandblast cabinet, vertical air compressor. Would love to have a jib crane and electric hoist!

Would be nice to have a paint area. I like to do these refurbs where I clean and paint stuff too. 
Regards,
 Chris


Edited by Sugarmaker - 10 Apr 2020 at 6:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tadams(OH) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2020 at 1:33pm
A heated paint booth could also double as a pickup storage area when not in use.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2020 at 1:20pm
Folks,
 Just a update, We continue to move slowly forward on this. I wake up in the middle of the night wondering about this project! Some of the paperwork has been set in motion.
Things like permits, 811 call, Electric engineer visited and gave me quote to get power to the building. She did a survey of our annual electric usage and found we dont even get close to using 100 amps at any point through the year. So we will be going with new service disconnect on the new building and then run new power to the house panel. Also my electrician was here to do rough measurements and is working up a quote.
Found out the supplier for gravel doesnt have the appropriate material for the building base at this time. And the contractor to do the site prep has just been called back to work. Cement contractors will be stopping in to provide quotes on flooring options.
So one move forward one move back. Sounds about right.
I have developed a general plan for the function/ layout in the building. I may wall in approx 1/4 th of the building as the shop for tools and work benches. This would be a area approx 20 x 20. 
I may try to sketch this up?
Also looking at light storage in approx 50% of the attic area. May build a permanent set of 4 foot wide stairs to enter that area above.
Lots of details. I would like a bunch of things that just may not be in the budget for a while.
If/ when this building project moves forward, I will try to take some pictures. 
Regards,
 Chris


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2020 at 2:49pm
Folks,
 Was just reviewing all the shop design and detail comments! So many good ideas here. I will use some and some may not fit my building design and or budget. I thank you for all of them! 
Regards,
 Chris

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farmboy520 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2020 at 5:52pm
Your idea of sketch of the building would be good. Make it to scale and take measurements of tractors and other "toys" so you know things will fit where you think they will.
On the farm: Agco Allis 9695, 7060, 7010, R62, Farmall H, and Farmall F20 (Great Grandpa's)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2020 at 8:56pm
Folks,
 At home due to weather and trying to not venture out much anyway. I spent a lot of the day doing soft work on the building project. It had been several years since I used Sketch-up design system. I was able to work on variations of the proposed floor plan. Not sure I can add  it in here its a PDF output file.
Ok So I could not figure out how to load a PDF so took some pictures of the screen the resized them, and then loaded. Don't laugh too hard will try to improve this sketch!:)


Not great pictures of the 3D sketches, sure not complete. and I am very rusty on CAD. Havent decided about location of the man door coming into the tool shop? Maybe in line with the stairs? Maybe around the corner. ceiling height 12 foot. garages doors in this design 10 foot high 12 foot wide. 3 foot walk doors. 

The big blue thing on the floor is my truck outline. The "tool shop" is about 20 feet sq. 
I moved the man door between the two 12 foot garage doors. Have stairs going to a loft area for some storage.
Will be a 6/12 pitch. 
Regards,
 Chris









Edited by Sugarmaker - 04 Jun 2020 at 9:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Brian Jasper co. Ia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2020 at 10:03pm
For insulation, go with spray foam. I did foam on my shop that's a combination concrete block/pole lean to. It basically turned it into an Igloo Cooler. My heat source is a mini split ductless system. It provides both heat and A/C. I went this route because the first summer I had a layer of mildew on everything. The beauty of the mini split is it's very economical to operate so you just turn it on and leave it on.
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote shameless dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2020 at 12:04am
and....frost will come up under the outside walls to about 4 ft in. I insulated my concrete floor with 2 inch 4x8 foam panels under the concrete. it has never settled or crushed down all these years and I sure can tell the difference on the warmth on the floor every winter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sugarmaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2020 at 8:56am
Guys,
The folks that have poured some buildings like this are recommending 4 foot of the insulation around the building perimeter to keep the frost out too.
Thanks for the ideas and suggestions!
 Regards,
 Chris
D17 1958 (NFE), WD45 1954 (NFE), WD 1952 (NFE), WD 1950 (WFE), Ford Jubilee, IH TD6 Many IH Cub Cadets
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