Unofficial Allis Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Other Topics > Pulling Forum
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Question for Dr. Allis

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
bigart View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2019
Location: La grange, KY
Points: 9
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Question for Dr. Allis
    Posted: 08 Sep 2019 at 11:51am
Was the 441 ci 301 engine you recently discussed, a wet or a dry block motor? Thanks
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
DrAllis View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 11296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2019 at 6:59pm
Wet. It was a non-turbo gasser and as far as I know still running after 15 years.
Back to Top
bigart View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2019
Location: La grange, KY
Points: 9
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2019 at 3:16pm
With 560/666 IH's all over running 466 N.A. and turbo engines, good to know you can run a 100 more cubes in a 301 ac in a 185/200 tractor. Thanks much for the information. A llss that runs Battle of the Bluegrass has a d19 rear, built 426 engine, heavily decompressed, but is a strong, consistent  runner.
 
Back to Top
bsallis180 View Drop Down
Silver Level
Silver Level


Joined: 29 Jul 2013
Location: Pennsylvania
Points: 179
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bsallis180 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2019 at 6:01pm
I think the 441 as a diesel or alky with a turbo would be short lived
Back to Top
bigart View Drop Down
Bronze Level
Bronze Level
Avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2019
Location: La grange, KY
Points: 9
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 2019 at 6:57pm
I would believe the 4.25 crank should be left alone---unless the budget can stand a billet crank! Even a 370 to 405 probably could benefit from a girdle, and maybe a deck plate in a competitive llss build!! Don't know about the legality of the practice, but years back some of the llss tractors did a deck plate for their combustion chamber---. A tractor with a 1 to 2 hp per cubic inch, at 3000 rpm or less---may be the most enjoyable/ low maintenance of toy tractors.  In the 80s a 4 charger 7030 puller and a binder prostock owner both told me they replaced rod/main bearings every 2 to 4 hooks---said making power was wearing them out!!
Back to Top
DrAllis View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Points: 11296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrAllis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2019 at 7:07am
The first 405 I built the crank was left stock. The 441 had an offset grind to stroke it 3/8" and I wouldn't even consider it in a turbo diesel.
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 4083
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2019 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by bigart bigart wrote:

...-unless the budget can stand a billet crank!...


Why do people perpetually misuse the term 'billet'?   You meant a 'forged' crank.  A 'billet' crank would become a crankcase pretzel before a cylinder EVER fired.

Billet is the second stage of steel production, like Ingot, Bloom, and Slab.  Billet is a very simple, extremely soft steel, with very little alloy or carbon added, sent through a furnace, and hot-rolled into shapes, typically either soft rounds, or rebar, sometimes roll-threaded.  Without the forming process, it's so malleable that it's useless for ANY purpose, other than a rapidly-rusting paperweight.  Smack it with a light hammer, and it shows a very noticeable dent.  It cannot be machined with any accuracy, it'd be like putting a bowl of peanut-butter in a Bridgeport.

A FORGING, on the other hand, is made by placing chemically-enhanced steel alloy material in a massive forge and either pressed or hammered into a die.   
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
bradley6874 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 05 Sep 2010
Location: salisbury md
Points: 1273
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradley6874 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2019 at 10:11am
True billet cranks are made of a hardened billet ,round blank that is made into a crankshaft buy machining had lots made for racing motors , and yes there expensive and they are significantly stronger than forged
You can wash the dirt off the body but you can’t wash the farmer out of the heart and soul
Back to Top
AaronSEIA View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level


Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Location: Mt Pleasant, IA
Points: 2255
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AaronSEIA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2019 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by DaveKamp DaveKamp wrote:

Originally posted by bigart bigart wrote:

...-unless the budget can stand a billet crank!...


Why do people perpetually misuse the term 'billet'?   You meant a 'forged' crank.  A 'billet' crank would become a crankcase pretzel before a cylinder EVER fired.

Billet is the second stage of steel production, like Ingot, Bloom, and Slab.  Billet is a very simple, extremely soft steel, with very little alloy or carbon added, sent through a furnace, and hot-rolled into shapes, typically either soft rounds, or rebar, sometimes roll-threaded.  Without the forming process, it's so malleable that it's useless for ANY purpose, other than a rapidly-rusting paperweight.  Smack it with a light hammer, and it shows a very noticeable dent.  It cannot be machined with any accuracy, it'd be like putting a bowl of peanut-butter in a Bridgeport.

A FORGING, on the other hand, is made by placing chemically-enhanced steel alloy material in a massive forge and either pressed or hammered into a die.   


I don't know, Dave.  I've watched several videos of billet cranks being machined.  I doubt they are spending thousands of dollars on them only to discover they are too soft to use.  Maybe after they are machined they are hardened somehow.  Here is a video of a billet crank being made.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2swZ88U1No
AaronSEIA
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 4083
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2019 at 3:14pm
I agree, they're putting substantial resources into making a machined crank from rolled alloy, but the fact that it's rolled alloy, means it's not 'billet'.

If it's rolled 4340 Cromoly, it's not 'billet'... it's an alloyed, rolled steel bar.  Billet is what you get when you melt brake drums and virgin iron, and instead of pouring it into an ingot, or a bloom, or a slab, you pour it into a trough that's about 4" square and 12ft long.    Once this has been done, it's sent on to be hot-rolled into soft products, like rebar, or if it's a sheet or foil mill, roof flashing, electrical conduit, and other non-structural applications.

Calling finished parts 'billet' is the same as extracting water from whole milk, chilling the gooey stuff that remains, and calling it 'ice cream'.

Modern CNC has made it much less expensive to make low production and one-off specialty parts, and the proliferation of consistent, high quality carbide, with flood coolant, in-place measurement, and other really great advances make it so that subtractive machining processes (both cutting, and abrasive) can work well on materials that wouldn't be economically workable just a decade-and-a-half ago.  It used to be, that the best process available, was to use high-force press forging on carefully-brewed alloys at precise temperatures... and when doing large volume, it's still impossible to beat the cost of good foundry work... but a forging of ANY type is extremely expensive for the first one... the only cost break comes when you run thousands and tens-of-thousands.


Edited by DaveKamp - 25 Sep 2019 at 3:19pm
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
Tbone95 View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Location: Michigan
Points: 6580
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tbone95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2019 at 7:15am
Originally posted by DaveKamp DaveKamp wrote:

Originally posted by bigart bigart wrote:

...-unless the budget can stand a billet crank!...


Why do people perpetually misuse the term 'billet'?   You meant a 'forged' crank.  A 'billet' crank would become a crankcase pretzel before a cylinder EVER fired.

Billet is the second stage of steel production, like Ingot, Bloom, and Slab.  Billet is a very simple, extremely soft steel, with very little alloy or carbon added, sent through a furnace, and hot-rolled into shapes, typically either soft rounds, or rebar, sometimes roll-threaded.  Without the forming process, it's so malleable that it's useless for ANY purpose, other than a rapidly-rusting paperweight.  Smack it with a light hammer, and it shows a very noticeable dent.  It cannot be machined with any accuracy, it'd be like putting a bowl of peanut-butter in a Bridgeport.

A FORGING, on the other hand, is made by placing chemically-enhanced steel alloy material in a massive forge and either pressed or hammered into a die.   
Same reason people misuse the word Kleenex.  It's the lingo.  And now that they've seen it on TV or youtube or the neighbor says it, it's now what it is!WinkLOL
Back to Top
bsallis180 View Drop Down
Silver Level
Silver Level


Joined: 29 Jul 2013
Location: Pennsylvania
Points: 179
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bsallis180 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2019 at 8:38am
I stayed at a holiday inn express last night
Back to Top
HudCo View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Location: Plymouth Utah
Points: 1940
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HudCo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2019 at 10:34am
maybe some one  will put out a  special ops. tactical crank, that would for sure make crazy insane  horse power
Back to Top
Ken(MI) View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Location: Lansing, MI
Points: 582
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken(MI) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2019 at 5:36pm
I'm with you Dave, the term Billett drives me nuts also. 45 years of forging, heat treating, and machining experience tells me better, I just watch it all for the entertainment.
Back to Top
DaveKamp View Drop Down
Orange Level
Orange Level
Avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: LeClaire, Ia
Points: 4083
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveKamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2019 at 10:01am
Originally posted by HudCo HudCo wrote:

maybe some one  will put out a  special ops. tactical crank, that would for sure make crazy insane  horse power


Actually, we should make "Special Ops Tactical Crank" stickers... sell 'em for three bucks, it'll guarantee an extra 700 ft-lbs just having it on the fender, right?
Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.


Help Support the
Unofficial Allis Forum