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nhoskins 
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Joined: 10 Nov 2012
Location: Vermont
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 Topic: PTO for an AC 653 for backhoe?
Posted: 20 Apr 2013 at 9:45pm |
Hello,
I have a AC 653 dozer, with an AC 400 winch on the back. I want to take the winch off and put a backhoe with a pto hydraulic pump on. Is there a plate/pto adaptor for these machines, and does anyone have one? Could I just make one out of some plate steel and a generic pto seal/bearing housing unit?
It seems that the 400 had a pretty standard pto shaft receiver on the inside. Any thoughts would be appreciated
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CAL(KS)
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Joined: 18 Sep 2009
Location: Chapman, KS
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Posted: 21 Apr 2013 at 6:45am |
there were backhoes available to mount on the rear of HD3's. didnt find anything for HD4 or 650 series, though they were upgraded machines with similiar parts. i could not find mention in Norm's book of a PTO option for these machines and i doubt they were available in the 70's when the 653 was produced. also being a torque converter machine makes it more unlikely. however, since the winch is driven in a similiar manner, It would be possible to fabricate some kind of PTO drive.
i think you problem may lie in mounting a backhoe and having enough room back there for a pto drive pump.
or you could tie into the internal pump on your dozer for power. they were 15 gpm.
Edited by CAL(KS) - 21 Apr 2013 at 6:52am
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Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20
Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15
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Coke-in-MN
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Joined: 12 Sep 2009
Location: Afton MN
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Posted: 21 Apr 2013 at 1:41pm |
I have a AC 615 backhoe that was on my HD4 , It fit onto tool carrier that mounted on back of machine then ran via a diverter valve off the hydraulic pump on the engine. Only problem was the diverter valve directed the hydraulics to the hoe so the loader was out of system when hoe was being used. You had a choice of which hydraulic valve body controlled the machine - loader control or backhoe control . Hoe is a 14' rated hoe for reach or dig depth. The unit used a 24" bucket and between the hoe on my AC 715B and the AC 615 hoe the cylinders are close to same size. Big difference is the 615 hoe uses CESSNA rotary piston swing motor and the 715 uses 2 hydraulic pistons.
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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nhoskins
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Location: Vermont
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Posted: 21 Apr 2013 at 8:25pm |
does any one have a pto unit off of an hd4? i think that it would work for me...
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Craig/insoh
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Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 10:24am |
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As Coke said the backhoe for 650 series crawler uses a valve to divert the hydraulic system to the backhoe! I just looked at my 650 backhoe literature same hoe as for hd4. You can look up parts manuals at minnparts and download them for ripper backhoe winch and crawlers.
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Craig/insoh
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Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 10:32am |
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page 242 in parts manual shows hydraulic circuit for backhoe all previous mentioned accessories are in same manual I also own a 652 crawler!
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 11:31am |
I will pass on this warning on using a backhoe on these machines . The hoe is a heavy piece of equipment to hang onto the tool carrier . It will counterbalance the machine to the point the weight of the machine will be centered not on truck frame but closer to the rear sprocket center-line. This will load the rear sprocket and axle - this will overload the rear bearings to a point where any rough or hard load shock will decrease the life of the bearings AND create a excess load on the bearing race area in the rear housing casting area where bearing race is machined. Using my HD4 with a loader without counterweight put a load on the front idler when lifting or carrying load in bucket, when the hoe was mounted the overload shifted to the rear sprockets. After 3 broken axles, 1 bull gear, 1 drive gear for bull gear, machining both rear cases for new bore to hold the outside timken bearing cup, I sold the machine and bought a AC 715 TLB to replace it and then bought a New Holland 785 skid loader to load and replace the other work, and went back to my HD5G for crawler jobs that i had bought the HD4 to do. Then I did keep the AC 615 backhoe attachment and still have that and have thought of mounting it on my F/A FD5 dozer. ( then not doing hoe work now that I need 2 machines)
Edited by Coke-in-MN - 22 Apr 2013 at 11:32am
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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nhoskins
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Location: Vermont
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Posted: 23 Apr 2013 at 6:36pm |
Thanks for the thoughts on the backhoe. This will be for farm use only, and it seems like it is worth a shot. When you broke parts, was it immediate, or with consistant use? Was it 3 break downs in 50 hours? I know that they made these machines with backhoes...
Here is a question: The AC uses a gear pump, with open center valving. The John Deere backhoe looks to have closed center valves. Could I put some sort of priority flow divider on there to get power to the hoe with out overloading the pump? Any thoughts on adapting the open center system to closed center implements?
Thanks for your help!
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Coke-in-MN
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Posted: 23 Apr 2013 at 6:53pm |
The problem I had were over a couple years of use, so it depended much on when and where I was using the machine. Part of the problem was when I replaced the first broken axle I bought a used one that had been welded up and machined because of seal wear on the axle . When they (whoever) fixed it the heat treating of axle was destroyed so it became brittle. Last one i put in I used a speedy sleeve and seal to fit that OD on axle, but then the inner bearing was also out so the machining of the case was part of repair. Going from open center to closed center I am unsure of - as the AC hoe for the machine used it's own valve body and the diverter valve directed the flow to either the hoe or the loader. As the valve was mounted just to side of the oil tank it could be reached from hoe seat to raise or lower loader when needed.
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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nhoskins
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Location: Vermont
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Posted: 23 Apr 2013 at 7:29pm |
Thanks,
If I can figure out the hydraulics, I think that I will go ahead and mount it on the dozer. It seems like the issue would be the same for my ford and my Case, as all three have open center hydraulics.
I am crossing my fingers and hoping something gets easier in this project!
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