Pertronix help
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=99978
Printed Date: 27 Jan 2025 at 10:50am
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Topic: Pertronix help
Posted By: Charlie175
Subject: Pertronix help
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 3:54pm
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D17 Series II, Positive Ground 12V I installed a 1142P12 with their 45,000 coil and it runs rough now. Checking the plugs, #1 is still wet. I replaced the plug with a new Autolite 65. Same issue. I replaced the wire and same issue. The plug wires says 7mm hi temp suppressor, no other info. Could it be the wires? Any ideas why #1 would not fire. With the plug out I get a very weak spark With the points system it ran and started fine, it would eat about 3 condensers a year though so I thought this would be a more reliable system. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Replies:
Posted By: DanSC
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 5:06pm
| Possible cap or rotor. As odd as it sounds. If the spark is weak and u have replaced the wire and plug already. |
Posted By: Bret (OH)
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 5:20pm
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I would switch the plug wires to metal core wires. No need to have suppression wires on a tractor. I have had them cause a problem like you are having. I would also check compression on cylinders to make sure You don't have a problem there. |
Posted By: TREVMAN
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 5:26pm
| Replace plugs with Autolite 295, adjust timing as needed. Usually timing can be advanced a fair amount with Pertronix. Ive done over ten and they all liked more advance, hope this helps, Trev. |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 5:32pm
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Isn't the 295 a short plug? I need the 3/4" plug CAP is new as of last summer as well as the wire set. Cap electrodes are still in great shape and not burned. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 5:33pm
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I can't remember, is advancing clock-wise or Counter? Counter if I remember right. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: TREVMAN
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 5:58pm
| Sorry Charlie Autolite 295 up to serial # 75000...after that I don't know...And advance is clockwisw I think, not sure, but you'll need to play with timing anyhow. I do the "field" version, what sounds best by ear to me, seems to work well, let us know Trev. |
Posted By: mooboy
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 6:20pm
| Are you sure you have a full 12 volts to the coil and the Pertronix igniter? Measure with a volt meter with the engine running. you may have a loose or corroded connection somewhere. Actually, because of the generator or alternator, should probably be more like 14 volts when the engine is running. The other thing to watch out for is a resister wire or ballast wire between the ignition switch and the coil and Pertronix igniter. Make sure any resistance in the circuit is removed. Best to check with engine running to determine voltage. |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 6:25pm
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Still has a Genny on it, which is hit or miss charging. I guess I can do the bypass with the switch wire to the negative battery terminal to test it out. Maybe the old switch is about gone. Might be a few days as it is blue as* cold out ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 6:30pm
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Won't be the coil or pertronix unit or rotor...since the other 3 plugs fire fine it has to be 1) bad plug or 2) bad high voltage wire. to test ... swap #1 plug with say #4. If the 'new' #4 fouls(wet) , it's a bad plug. If the 'new' #1 is wet , it's a bad high voltage wire. this stuff i understand....old school, simple, reliable.... Jay ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: DanD
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 8:46pm
Actually, that is incorrect. The longer 3/4 reach plugs were used in Series III for sure and maybe somewhat earlier. I can't find a reference for sure as to when the change was made. Of course, heads have been switched over the years. My father, for example, has an early D17 with a head from a Gleaner E engine so it uses the longer plugs. Easiest way to make sure is to just measure the depth of the threads in the head you have. But, like I said, the 3/4 inch plugs were used much earlier than Serial number 75,000. The Autolite 295 plugs are only 3/8" reach. Also, in order to advance the timing, you must turn the entire distributor counterclockwise as viewed from the top. The distributor mechanism turns in a clockwise direction in operation, so turning the entire assembly counterclockwise will advance the timing. |
TREVMAN wrote:Posted By: B W in Mo
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 8:57pm
| Autolite 404 is the long reach. |
Posted By: TREVMAN
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 9:03pm
| My mistake...So what autolites for a gleaner e z code engine? Calls for ac45 which cross to 295 autolite but I am sure you are right about the 3/8 and 3/4 reach. If I highjacked the thread please move my post. Just curious now as I put 295 plugs im my E this fall and it wants to start hard now...Thanks in advance, Trev. |
Posted By: Stan R
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 9:03pm
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Put one on our IV few months ago and it runs super. I called the factory and they told me to follow wiring diagram figure A in the directions that comes with it. Note this will reverse the wiring on the coil that you currently have. Unsure if this is the cure, but.... And we bypassed the resistor that is tucked under the gas tank. |
Posted By: DanD
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 9:10pm
A Z code Gleaner E engine would have called for AC 45XL plugs instead of AC 45 plugs. Autolite plug would be 64 or 404 |
Posted By: Clay
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 11:58pm
Replacement spark plugs for AC DELCO 45XL:
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Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 5:43am
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I have positive coil going to positive battery terminal Black wire to switch lead. Black/white wire to negative Coil. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 5:44am
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I've been using the longer plugs since I had it and nothing has contacted.
It had the AC 45XL's originally. the Autolite 64,65,66 was a direct cross-over per the parts counter girl. So I need a 404 instead? ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 6:19am
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Charlie, First of all, make absolutely sure if you're running a 12V Pos ground system, that the Pertronix Ignitor is designed for 12VPG. Next, if the engine started running rough right after you did the swap to E.I., I wouldn't rule out that the E.I. might have a problem. If you swapped back to points/condenser and the engine ran fine again, I would rule out the cap, rotor, or wires at this time. Now, the next thing for you to do is call the Pertronix tech line and present your problem to them. Let them tell you what to try. We sell a lot of Pertronix kits outright and when I do Distributor rebuilds. Once in a great while, one would have issues. Rare, but hey, it happens. Once you touch base with Pertronix, and if they give you a few things to try and you still have the problem, they'll want you to send the unit back to them so they can test the unit. In the meantime, you can switch the Tractor back to points and still keep the machine in service. If the machine still runs the same even with the points re-installed, then you'll have to troubleshoot the problem and see if you can locate it. Don't go switching wires around or Battery cables with that E.I. in there. You will fry the module and then you own a junk module that you just paid good money for. Talk to Pertronix first, and get their opinion on the matter first! Don't smoke a E.I. cause then you own it, and you'll still have your problem possibly... HTH Steve@B&B ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 8:04am
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Thank Steve I think I will take it out and see what happens. The support section mentions to bypass the switch as a trouble shooter. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 10:05am
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Normally, I'd agree with EVERYTHING Steve suggests, but not this time... Because you're getting good fire on all but one plug. That tells me that the system IS firing substantially. Read on: Suppressor wires OR resistor plugs should be used on an EI battery/coil system. SOLID wires AND non-suppression plugs on magneto systems ONLY. If it didn't have firing issues on that plug BEFORE, but a new ignition trigger and coil is problematic NOW, it's most likely that the new ignition systems' higher voltage is finding a weak spot in existing coil wire, cap, rotor, plug wires, or plug, and discharging directly to ground, rather than passing through the plug wire to the plug. Been through that many times. Easy trick- wait till after sundown, fire it up, and take a walk-around, look for illuminating clues as to where electricity could be escaping. If you don't see it on the OUTSIDE, it's most likely carbon tracking on the inside of the cap, or THROUGH the rotor into the diz shaft, OR across to an adjacent plug wire. ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 11:52am
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I called support, the guy said a rough run condition is common as the timing may now be 5-10 degrees off from the points based system. So step 1 is to adjust the timing. Step 2 is to attach the black wire direct to battery negative and bypass the switch as it is common for the switch to have too much resistance. Step 3 is to call back if the above don't work. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: TREVMAN
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 3:37pm
| Well, at least I was right about the timing...And we all found out about spark plugs for the long reach heads...And I solved one of my own issues, explains a couple of things for me...Charlie, Don't give up on the Pertronix they are the single best thing that can be done to wake these old engines up, bang for buck. Dave and Steve will get you through it and I'll shut up now,lol, Trev. |
Posted By: stu(ON)
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 4:30pm
Since Charlie's course of action has been determined, I will attach for general interest the following AC Service Bulletin on distributors from the WD45 and CA period. Later distributor applications specified an advance of 25* BTDC, rather than the 30* in the bulletin, and said that this could applied backwards, as well.  |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 4:58pm
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Yah, my D17 manual states 25 ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 5:52pm
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It probably goes without saying, but just because it happens... DO make sure that advance mechanism is functioning, and that the distributor shaft isn't slopping around too bad. The Pertronix kit will be less sensitive to shaft/bushing runout than the points WERE, but that doesn't totally eliminate unstable trigger signals, and furthermore, it causes the rotor to 'wander' about the underside of the cap. IF you happen to have more than one tractor with that distributor, and the other is a good runner, I'd suggest 'borrowing' the other tractor's cap and rotor for a known-good test. If that #1 plug fires with the other cap, then your cap is certainly bad. I've had some carbon-track, and they'd settle down after a good soap-and-water scrub-out... but I had one (on my hotrod boat with Delco EST ignition) that would NOT play nice... kept cross-firing under load... after trying two new distributor caps, a third one finally worked, and it's been happy ever since.  ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 5:56pm
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in regards to the spark plugs, I see that engine number 17-17293 and prior used the short style like a Autolite 295. After that they used the longer models. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 11:12am
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Heat wave today (31) so I went home at lunch and borrowed the Dist cap and wires from my D12 and tried that. I also went out and purchased a timing light with tach. Runs the same, just doesn't sound right. Wide open it registers 1650 rpm's which is correct. Looking at the timing mark, it should stayed centered but it jumps from bottom to top to middle and such. The shaft seems to be pretty tight and has no wobble. I still need to check the advance mechanism. I will try the switch bypass next, and also the advance. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2015 at 9:51am
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At the coil I have 12v going into the plus side, on the negative side I have 8v coming out to the dist. Should this be 12v also? ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2015 at 12:04pm
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With the engine running? If your engine is running you won't know what the real voltage coming from the coil is. Is the gap set correctly between your distributor cam and the Pertronix pickup sensor? |
Posted By: Don(MO)
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2015 at 12:34pm
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Some things you might look at after you have checked all the stuff that Steve said to look at is the drive and driven gears and the pin that holds the drive gear to the govr shaft if the pin is gone or gears are wore a lot and without the points holding some drag on the distributor and now you installed the pointless unit there's no drag on the distributor shaft and that will make the timing move ahead and back some.I'd put all the old stuff back on the tractor check the timing and see if it's still moving ahead and back like it did when the Pertronix kit was on it. ------------- 3 WD45's with power steering,G,D15 fork lift,D19, W-Speed Patrol, "A" Gleaner with a 330 corn head,"66" combine,roto-baler, and lots of Snap Coupler implements to make them work for their keep. |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2015 at 1:03pm
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Well it was operator induced error. When I took the valve cover off to verify that all the rods where in place I turned the nuts a little tighter. This compounded a low compression issue with the valves. I found this out by starting over going over the steps I had done. When using my finger to find TDC on #1 I noticed that I had very little air coming by. I put the gauge on it and it only had 20 lbs or less. I reset the valve clearance and now I am at 205 compression on all 4 cylinders. Starts right up and sounds great. I learned you can't slap it back together and not check the tappet clearance. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: Ted J
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2015 at 5:02pm
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Good thing you didn't bend any push rods! Surprising when you back track and find your OOPS... ------------- "Allis-Express" 19?? WC / 1941 C / 1952 CA / 1956 WD45 / 1957 WD45 / 1958 D-17 |
Posted By: Bob J Wi
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2015 at 9:25am
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Interesting subject. I have a MF 175 with perkins 4cyl gas engine. My plugs were fouling so I put in a Petronix ignition. Still had plugs that would foul. So I switched to premium gas with no ethanol, and now my plugs do not foul. This might help you out. |
Posted By: Bob J Wi
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2015 at 9:29am
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Try switching to premium gas with no ethanol. It helped my MF 175 perkins. Plugs do not foul now. |
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2015 at 11:10am
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I suspect that the ethanol mix fuel burns a little cooler. A slightly hotter plug might accomplish the same thing. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2015 at 11:24am
Ah... actually now, the best lesson, is to identify everything you changed, before troubleshooting a problem. We didn't know you'd changed anything in the valvetrain... had we, I'm certain we would have had you go back and check those FIRST. Glad you got it figured out. class dismissed, time to go out and play!  ------------- Ten Amendments, Ten Commandments, and one Golden Rule solve most every problem. Citrus hand-cleaner with Pumice does the rest. |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2015 at 10:13am
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Yeah Charlie! Stop holding secrets! Ya started off with after you put in your new E.I. in it runs rough. WTH? LOL!! Like Dave said, ya got us all goin' in the wrong direction! Sheesh! Or how does Shameless say it psst!! LOL! ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2015 at 10:24am
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Paul Harvey , The Rest of the Story ------------- He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless ,still dead. If all else fails ,Read all that is PRINTED. |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2015 at 10:52am
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I didn't think that would have affected things but then I remembered on here someone posted having that valve train issue. My Bad!  ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: Bret (OH)
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2015 at 10:55am
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I would also check compression on cylinders to make sure You don't have a problem there. 2nd reply on January 5th. |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2015 at 12:03pm
Yep! I was stuck on the electrical issue and it ran OK prior to swapping out the points. I never had a low compression issue before and didn't know how it affected the engine. Live and learn! I can now click that box. Full history: I put in new sleeves and pistons. Got it together. Tractor started and ran, Good Oil pressure. Turned it off. Put in Pertronix and it ran like crap. Ask forum for help Took off valve cover to check that rods were in fact all in since piston number 1 plug was wet. Yep, looked good, checked nuts again on valve train as the oil splash thing I couldn't remember if it had a washer or not on the nut.. Messed with Pertronix to ensure it was in correctly. Ask forum for help Checked for TDC on #1 and had very little pressure. Freaked out. Compression gauge test and came out real low. Freaked out again OK, I remember online someone commented that torquing the rocker nuts down caused a compression issue. Yep, the valves were tight. Adjusted per book and wham pressure is up to 205 to 210 on all 4. Slapped myself silly.  ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: skipwelte
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2015 at 3:38pm
| Being a service manager for 18 years I learned the guy runnin the machine can usually tell ya how to fix it, but ya gotta ask a lot of questions and sometimes ya gotta talk to the operator more than one time. Stories change, people forget things, can get off on one issue and forget what the big picture was. Glad ya got it fixed!! |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2015 at 6:35am
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Yeah sure.... NOW you tell us the WHOLE story!! LMAO!!! ------------- 39'RC, 43'WC, 48'B, 49'G, 50'WF, 65 Big 10, 67'B-110, 75'716H, 2-620's, & a Motorhead wife |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2015 at 7:55am
yes I owe everyone a frosty beverage!  ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |