7030 for super field
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Topic: 7030 for super field
Posted By: 7060
Subject: 7030 for super field
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2014 at 10:39pm
I bought this tractor today, and am considering making a puller out of it. I want to start out in super field, and eventually graduate to hot farm class. Will the 3500 series engine hold together as good as a 3700? Will the clutch handle it okay, or should I go ahead and add more plates? Rules would be 10,200 lbs, 2900rpm, roosa .450, water injection, 3lm466 or equivalent turbo, and no intercooler.
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Replies:
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2014 at 6:46am
| 3500 Mark 2 engine and 3700 engines are identical except for the intercooler on the 3700 and in the case of a 7030, it doesn't have the block drilled for piston cooling jets. If it was mine, and I had the engine all apart, I'd easily drill these little holes in the upper main bearing saddles. If the Power Director clutch is resealed and in good mechanical condition, it will handle the HP you're talking about. RoosaMaster "450" doesn't fit on a Mark 2 engine. You'll need a 7080 or old N-6 injection pump and larger injector tips 4 hole x .020" or .022" set at 2800 psi. American Bosch M-100 injection pump from an 8000 series would be better. 3LM turbo or equivalent is interesting.....I'd probably look for an "equivalent" as there are better ones than a 3LM466. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2014 at 8:02am
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I have an adapter made to adapt a .450 DB pump to a MKII style front plate. I've built lots of .450 pumps for pullers, and since they outperform a DM4 by over 100cc, I figured it would be a good investment in designing the adapter. I also build injectors, and get lines as well. You'll just have to bend them to fit. pm for more details. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2014 at 11:28am
| Scratch the super field, not even sure it still exists as I was reading a year old rule book. Moving on up to 9000lb Hot Farm. The rules are no intercoolers exept for the AC 426 at 3000rpm - 10mm bosch A, .450 roosa,or ambac 100 at 13mm - Water injection - 2.82" inlet and wheel turbo, or an optional box 3x3 turbo GT4202 or GT4202R. |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2014 at 2:13pm
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1 - So does it have to be the Allis 426 intercooler or can it be any intercooler? 2 - Can you run more that 426 cubes with an intercooler? I assume you can not and that's why you get a cooler with a 426. 3 - What is the cubic inch limit for the red and green tractors? 4 - How are the officials able to tell what size plungers are in each pump? This could be an alright class for an Allis depending on what the other colors get to use. |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2014 at 5:11pm
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Posted By: AC 7060
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2014 at 7:53pm
| Can you run ice water in the intercooler |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2014 at 2:20am
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That answers all of my questions other than the who can tell the size of the plungers in each pump. That is probably the biggest question of them all in my mind. If you are confined to the 426 intercooler whether you can run ice water through it or not I would go to 466 inches with an inline pump. A 10 mm inline pump(or any of the other pump choices) will most likely not be enough to keep a 2.8 turbo up at 3,000 RPM even at 466 cubes. The good news is that it should be the same for everybody as long as they have legal sized injection pumps. This is still a class where an Allis can compete. Keep us posted on thing to come. This could be a competitive class for the old 426. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2014 at 8:10am
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Besides my 450 roosa, I also build a couple different mean Bosch A pumps. 10mm bosch plungers, good for 340cc, 10mm Denso plunger 440cc, or 12mm plunger at 600cc max. For you rules and setup, I'd recoment the 10mm denso. Your rules have that limit, so I won't build a 12 for you in that class. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2014 at 12:15pm
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I agree. Go for the pump which will deliver the most and still be legal. 440 cc's at 466 cubes might surpass what the stock PD clutch will handle - but that's a good problem to have. A 7580 clutch might be needed or as someone suggested earlier, lock up both high and low sides of the clutch at the same time. Combine that with high range gears from a power shift transmission(used with high range gears from a power director transmission) and replace the 7030 4th gear pair with a 7040 4th gear pair and you will have many fast gears to pick from. |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2014 at 5:54pm
| Thanks for all the advice. Ed I'll be talking to you when I make it to the pump. The guy I bought it from said that the rear end locked up after chisel plowing froze ground, so I have another 7030 rear end and a 7060 rear end with bad range gears. I think I'm going to go with the 7030 rear for simplicity, will it be alright for the horsepower? |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2014 at 8:47am
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If rear end and transmission are in good condition you won't break it. Dr. Allis could tell you if the differential needs to be needled or not. He is very familiar with that driveline. As stated before. Keep us updated on the progress. This is an interesting project with potential to compete well. 466 cubes is easy to get out of the 426 whether you increase the bore or increase the stroke. No boring of the block would be required. Good luck |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2014 at 3:11pm
| From doing other searches on here it sounds like stroke would be an easier way to get there. Does anyone know of a place to get a stroked crank, or is that even my best option? Also do I double spring my TL or machine myself a solid one? |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2014 at 3:34pm
| Ice is being allowed in the intercoolers on tractors with engine sizes of 410 c.i. and smaller. Also, Ice would be allowed in Allis Chalmers Tractors equipped with Factory InterCoolers but only if engine maintains 426 C.I. It may not be decubed. |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2014 at 3:42pm
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A longer stroke would be less costly I would think. 5.450" stoke gets you to 464 cubes with stock buckets. Ed has at least one vendor he can recommend. Find a counter balanced crankshaft out of a 7080, 7580, N5, N6. Use the OEM pistons, machine the top off, and machine the bowls and valve reliefs. Heat treat the conn rods please. You might consider using the newer, 1.750" wrist pin rods and pistons. With that said you might consider finding and N5 - N6 engine complete and running. It would have the piston cooled block, counter balanced crank, big pin rods and pistons. I think with the ft. lbs. you have the potential to produce you better make the torque limiter solid or you might be disappointed. One less thing to slip. If the 426 intercooler was as efficient as the newer Precision intercoolers I would say go with it and leave it at 426 inches. That would be a low cost way to get the job done. Even with ice water running through them, the 426 cooler will do okay, but won't make up 40 cubic inches I don't think. If they allowed you to use any ice water intercooler you wanted, I would go a Precision or any bar and plate core type cooler every day of the week and twice on Sunday. |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2014 at 4:14pm
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Whatever you do save enough money for a good fuel system and turbo. If that means leaving it a 426 with the 426 cooler, then so be it. I'm not sure what your budget is and although it might sound like I am trying to spend all of your money for you, that isn't my intent. Just to be safe, figure 2500 - 3,000.00 for a turbo and worked from there. Ed will know what the fuel system will cost. As I said earlier in the post, I don't know if you can turn a 2.8 inlet turbo or not, but if you can, there are some awesome 2.8 billet wheel turbo's available. My guess is that a really good 2.8 billet turbo will out perform a standard "out of the box" 2.95" GT42. |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2014 at 4:37pm
| I have 2-3500's and most of a 3700 engine out of a 7060. If I go the stroked route will I need new sleeves to eliminate any ring groove from previously running engines. I want to have somewhere in the $10,000 range to start out if at all possible. Will a good billet turbo cost a lot more than a new gt42? |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2014 at 5:00pm
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Yep. I would guess a new GT42 (journal bearing) could be bought for $1500. To satisfy my own curiosity I will check with some turbo shops and see if they think a billet 2.8 will outperform the stock GT42. One advantage I see right off the bat is that the GT42 has a 2.95 outlet on the exhaust wheel. I saw no rule that said the exhaust wheel limit was 3 inches or less. With the non GT42 turbo (whatever it may be) you could run larger than a 3 inch outlet which will be an advantage I would think. I will report back when I find out. |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2014 at 8:11am
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I think it will run pretty good with the 10mm denso plunger A pump and supporting hardware, then with a 2.6" inlet S300 for $625. It will get it on the track! ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: NEVER green
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2014 at 8:32am
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You cant beat the S300 for the money. ------------- 2-8050 1-7080 6080 D-19 modelE & A 7040 R50 |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2014 at 11:29am
| We are talking about an out of the box S300? |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2014 at 12:15pm
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yes. Never green bought one from me, we all run them in our pulling class, just the smaller version. In an RPM limited class, the turbo limit is not necessarily as big a turbo as you'll need. I see so many over turbocharged tractors it's not even funny! Just because the rule is 3X3 or whatever, doesn't mean you'll run the best with that big a windmill. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2014 at 1:10pm
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As I mentioned before, I doubt there is any way you will effectively spin a 2.8 inch turbo with less than 550 - 600 cc's of fuel@ 3200 RPM. I would agree with the limited pump you will probably be in the 2.5 - 2.6" inlet size turbo range. The S300 turbo is a good turbo at a good price. A few different compressors and exhaust wheels and housings to choose from too. The Holset HX50 would be another good choice for what you want to do. |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2014 at 2:01pm
| I run a custom welding and fabrication business. Would designing my own exhaust manifold be beneficial to increase flow, or is steel a bad idea? Having trouble finding an original d21 manifold, and I think I could design one better. I don't see anything about the exhaust not being factory. |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2014 at 3:24pm
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Steel is not a bad idea but may change shape and need to be surfaced a couple of times before it finds it shape. Every time you take it off and lay a straight edge across where it mates to the cylinder head it will not be flat. If done correctly it will increase flow and from what others have said a divided manifold is a plus. We use carbon steel weld elbows. Some use stainless which I am sure would be better. No need for great big runners. The size of the exhaust port is big enough. Your skills will come in handy on this project. Frame rails, front axle, drawbar, weight brackets, wheelie bars, etc. Lots of work for a skilled fab guy to do on a puller. By the way, getting an 18 inch long drawbar on that tractor may require reconstructive surgery to the rear housing. Easy enough for someone with your abilities. |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2014 at 4:21pm
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Here is an inexpensive 2.6 inlet turbo. They make three versions of the 2.6. This is the mild one. http://www.precisionturbo.net/turbochargers/truck-pulling/details/2-6-x-3-Truck-Pulling-Turbocharger/540 Do you have to spend $4800.00 on a turbo to have fun? Certainly not. It's just an example of what's out there. Precision stuff is really good... and expensive. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2014 at 5:32pm
| Make six adapter blocks and use an IH DT414 exhaust manifold. That will be better than an AC 426 manifold and probably better than you can fabricate. |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2014 at 6:15pm
| I was thinking about making it more like headers angling up to a short 4" square tube box for the turbo to set on with a divider plate in it. That way it can flex as it heats and still maintain seal. Tig weld it all together with short sweep 90's and seamless DOM tubing. I never thought about fitting a different breed to it dr. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2014 at 6:27pm
| The results with the more modern "pulse" design IH manifold are worth the extra effort to adapt. Been there.....dun that. Look at almost any good exhaust manifold on a modern turbo engine and they are very similar in design......small tight runners......6-5-4 feed into one half of the turbo.....3-2-1 feed into the other half.....again SMALL tight runners all in a straight line almost all the way. |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2014 at 6:33pm
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The IH manifold is probably hands down your best option and there are plenty of them to be found. If you do use steel 90 degree bends, consider putting two of them against each other with two legs pointing up for the turbo flange, one leg points forward for the front three cylinders and the other leg points reward for the rear three. You my have to grind / cut some of the 90's flat where the touch in the center at the turbo flange. Much smoother transition than a box tubing. |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2014 at 7:02pm
| Looks like I can buy a new one for $370. That sounds like a lot simpler route too |
Posted By: dbounds
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2014 at 4:39pm
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I pull that class with the Missouri Mule D21 and you will need some wheaties (700-800 hp) to compete. head work will be a must and 466 cubes would be best. I am not there yet. an 11mm pump minimum, 12 better. need to run 22-25 mph to be competitive. I am running around 22-23 mph and placing 5-7 th place usually. Doyle |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2014 at 5:44pm
| So the 10mm plunger rule isn't enforced? Shocker. |
Posted By: AC 7060
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2014 at 6:46pm
| Better get rid of the power director to it won't like 800 HP. My power director in a 7060 won't hold any more than 4th high at 10,000 pounds. I successfully ran 5th once on a slick track after a rain. I tried 5th a couple times after that and warped the clutch disks. |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2014 at 7:02pm
| I'm going to run legal regardless. I'm going to try 426 cubes with the stock cooler on ice. Eventually I might stroke one of my other engines to put in it. The way I figure it the 7030 running 5th gear at 3000rpm it should be 22mph without wheel slip. Am I wasting my time with the 30 rear end or should I just try and find some power shift range gears for it? This may be a question for the doctor, but will power shift gears go into the 7030 rear? I remember something being different in the 7030 and 7050s. Also if the power director won't hold, will cutting the center spines out and welding the low side gear to the high side gear and modifying the clutch hub and piston to run the low side discs too work? |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2014 at 9:21pm
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I doubt you will get anywhere close to 22MPH or 700 HP with a 10mm pump. Just not enough fuel to make enough power to do that. If they limited the turbo inlet to something a lot smaller than 2.8 or a GT42 there would be less need for oversized A pumps. I read the rules for the 9500 pro field last night. They are identical to the 9000 hot farm other than you can use a P series pump and you can use 20.8 X 38 or 24.5 tires in the pro field class. Not much more money for a P pump than a good A pump. If the plunger size rule isn't enforced you will see that kind of competition in the hot farm class anyway. The clutch will be an issue unless your play by the 10mm rules. If you stay legal, you should be fine if you use a 7580 clutch. If you go faster I would guess you will need to figure out how to manufacture a hub and engage both sides of the clutch at once. |
Posted By: dbounds
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2014 at 8:06pm
| Just got home, I answered quick yesterday while traveling. I run with the Northwest Missouri pullers assoc. with very similar rules but our A pump size is open. Most of our tractors are running 11 or 12 mm pumps. IAMO tractors do come pull with us some and pull together at State fair ect. Their has been some movement of A pump tractors to the P pump class but that will involve several more $$$ to compete there. Most are in the 1000 hp range. All are running 2-3 disc clutch setups, singles would prove a disappointment. Our A pump rules can be found at NWMTPA.com. Might check out our A pump 12 mph class, we are very competitive in this class 1st-3rd placings usually and don't take near as much $$$ to be competitve and a 10mm pump will work there. Would be glad to talk about it if interested. Doyle |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2014 at 2:36pm
| I know a guy who runs limited pro with nwmtpa, but I would like to run with iamo since they are more in my area. The Shelby, Mo pull is only a few miles from me. There are a couple hot farm tractors running in the pro field P pump class too I have seen. Wish iamo had a 12mph class for me to start out in. |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2014 at 3:01pm
| Any pullls this year yet ? |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2014 at 9:20am
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Wonder what this dude is using for a clutch? No shift on the go. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwwDc6irnhw |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2014 at 9:11pm
| Is a shift on the go a benefit? I watch a 2255 Oliver that pulls hot farm and it looks like that shift breaks traction and after that it's over. I think I came up with an idea on locking the whole power director into high. If I weld the low side to the high side and mill the splines out so it can turn on the transmission shaft, and remove the center seal ring on the power director clutch hub where it goes through the front housing so when I let out on the clutch pedal it engages both pistons. Any opinions on this? Also is there anything wrong with running the intake straight off the turbo and turning it up and out the top of the hood behind the radiator though? I seen in the video he has his in the grill, but he must be dry blocking it with no radiator? |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 20 Sep 2014 at 9:45pm
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The upshift on the go shift is beneficial on pace tractor classes. The downshift usually equals the end of the run or close to it. When the HP gets high enough an on the go shift is no longer possible. Even the high output IH T/A will only handle so much. After that its pick a gear and run it. I would assume he is using a shorter radiator and running the air intake pipe over the top. I think a straight shot into the inlet of the turbo is a good thing. Huge HP gain - no, but you will gain some. |
Posted By: AC 7060
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2014 at 10:37am
| I run a 190 radiator in place my 7060 radiator and run the intake over the top of it. |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2014 at 8:18pm
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Notice the exhaust manifold. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udoL2mU4-cg |
Posted By: Peterson
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2014 at 8:53pm
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I'd like to see a picture of the DT manifold on the 426. See how it fits. ------------- 7095-685I at 255hp, 8070-225HP,8050-210Hp,8030 with 155HP,220 with 670T engine with A-pump, 7580, 185 with 140HP, 2-6080's,6070, S4 D17,wd45,CA,st34 agco, S1 D17 with 3500MK2 |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2014 at 10:41pm
| Looks like a steel manifold similar to what I was talking about building? Looks like it's glowing hot. |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2014 at 10:52pm
| I agree. The glow would indicate it is a steel manifold. The shape / direction of the runners would too. |
Posted By: 7060
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2014 at 10:06pm
| I see a lot of pulling tractors with 8 lug aluminum wheels on the front. What are they using for hubs/spindles? Ide like to use 8 lug on 6.5" aluminum wheels such as on a chevy/old ford/old dodge pickup. I never have paid attention to them on tractors ive seen. |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2014 at 10:58pm
| If you build a light weight front axle (which I would recommend)you can use any spindle and hub you choose which increases the amount of wheels to choose from. If you use your existing spindles and hubs, I would assume you can machine the hubs to fit an 8 bolt truck wheel. You will have to do some measuring. |