301 increased cubic displacment
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Forum Name: Pulling Forum
Forum Description: Forum dedicated to Tractor and Garden Pulling
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82682
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Topic: 301 increased cubic displacment
Posted By: WildBill
Subject: 301 increased cubic displacment
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 8:12pm
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I see so many topics on this mostly in relationship to big bore kits with sleeves and custom ross pistons etc. So why not stroke the crankshaft to lets say to 5.00 stroke. Then mill off the deck the stock piston for compression height of oh lets say .010 below the deck, and clearance the skirts to crankshaft and of course mill in the valve reliefs ?
353 ci. what I am getting here in this topic is I read awhile back there was advice to do this to a 426 and use stock rods harden then clearance the stock piston . supposed to be cost effective cause you will not have all the machining expenses in custom sleeves and pistons etc. according to the post. I have not measured out all the specs like crank to cam and crank to oil pan deck. maybe the reason ! Or do the bowls get to shallow and cause the compression ratio to go crazy high ? thoughts ?
thanks much!
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Allis fan for life ! B,C,2-WC'S,WD45G,D19G,190xt ,LLSS 8010, terra tiger refurbished
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Replies:
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 8:26pm
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There really ain't room for a 5 inch stroke crankshaft in a 301 diesel, Bill. Many years ago, I built a 441 cube 301 gasser that had a 4.625 inch stroke and 4.500 inch bore. I also built a 405 cube gasser and know of a 405 turbo diesel. Not sure what your point is, but there has to be some sort of a "plan" when building more cubic inches into any engine. Some engines have more room or potential than others do. Not all engines are created the equal.
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Posted By: WildBill
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 8:32pm
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Hi DR Allis , well that's what I was wondering on clearance issues at the block and crank to cam etc. so in the other fellers post on 426/466 there must more significant room in the block and adjacent area's than a 301?
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Allis fan for life ! B,C,2-WC'S,WD45G,D19G,190xt ,LLSS 8010, terra tiger refurbished
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 8:34pm
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The 426's have been to 540 cubes fairly easily and I know Al Koch had one (or more) out to 628 cubes.
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Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 8:46pm
crank to cam clearance is a mild issue on the 426 at 5.5". I could imagine the nightmare clearancing that 5" swing in a 301. Rods with a smaller big end would help. When we cut the top of piston down, we cut the whole top down, including the bowl.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Posted By: WildBill
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 9:51pm
well it was a thought for me cause I'm setting on 12 sets of 301 pistons and sleeves !! Even at that a person could maybe swing a 4.75 stroke if the 4.625 was possible ? Then counterbalance the crankshaft while it was at the welding shop for a face lift.
While we are on a 301 subject what kind of set up was the 301 gasser ? custom intake and holley carb ? like to hear the story cause I have a crappy indy head with a bad injector hole that's toooo far gone to repair. But I could get it set up for spark plugs easily !!! What kind of ignition was on the gasser? compression ratio ? firing on alcohol ?
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Allis fan for life ! B,C,2-WC'S,WD45G,D19G,190xt ,LLSS 8010, terra tiger refurbished
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Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 9:57pm
A 301 can be stroked from a 4.250 to 4.500 stroke with stock rods. Some clearance issues with the camshaft, but a little grinding and you are OK. I have researched this a little and with a custom set of offset rods you could possibly go to a 4.650 stroke maybe 4.700.If you went that far I would guess the strength of the crank would be compromised if it were to be used for a high HP application. So, with a 4.7 inch stroke (if possible) and stock pistons in a 301 you go from 301 to 332 cubes. Wow, that's a lot of work and money spent for 31 cubic inches. You can get to 341 cubes without even boring the block by using high strength sleeves and pistons that fit. You can bore the block and get to 383 C.I. easily and still use the stock crank.
There is a lot more room in a 426 for a stroker vs. the 301. That's why it makes sense to stroke a 426, but doesn't with a 301.
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 9:59pm
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The 4.625" stroke was done using 2 inch diameter rods from another engine, and I wouldn't use those rods in a diesel. Manifold was modified stock with huge Deere combine updraft carb. Compression was 12 to 1 .
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Posted By: WildBill
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 10:02pm
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That's what I was wondering why others haven't done the same as the 426/466 post . Correct I would not do that for 31 cubes . Rather add a second turbo and let it rip that way..
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Allis fan for life ! B,C,2-WC'S,WD45G,D19G,190xt ,LLSS 8010, terra tiger refurbished
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Posted By: WildBill
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 10:13pm
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A few of you know I melted #1 last summer and made a huge mess out of it . When I tore the engine down I found several counter bores cracked at the deck. sleeve in #1 cracked all the way around just below the counter bore. I could pull 2 inches of sleeve out by my fingers !! So block is junk also. Lesson learned on my behalf by not tearing it down after I purchased it and making sure It was all in spec yet. Well season is coming up and I'm fishing for ideas that are in a decent budget to bolt it back together and run it for a season. I have several 301 blocks just bone stock !! I seen Orange Crush had some sleeves and pistons for sale while back but he doesn't respond to me ..
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Allis fan for life ! B,C,2-WC'S,WD45G,D19G,190xt ,LLSS 8010, terra tiger refurbished
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Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2014 at 11:36pm
I had fixed up some aluminum Indy heads for another engine a couple years ago. I bored the injector hole out and threaded the bottom with a 1/2" pipe plug.
They make some pipe plugs that are machined with 14mm spark plug threads and seat in them to repair old heads and this is what I used rather than trying to thread into the aluminum. I was moving the hole offset to center it in the chamber better and just didn't have room to run the smaller 14mm thread.
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"see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet"
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Posted By: WildBill
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 1:34pm
Hey Marty ! Say when I come to see you I will bring that Indy head along and have you look at it. I was hoping to mill out the old injector hole and press in a new machined steel per say injector sleeve? The only hiccup I see is valve seats are so terrible close !!! I heard of a guy in Indiana with a 301 gasser having msd ignition, custom down draft intake /header manifold made and Holley alcohol carb on top with turbo ? So I thought the head wud be cool for that set up ! No sense on throwing it away .
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Allis fan for life ! B,C,2-WC'S,WD45G,D19G,190xt ,LLSS 8010, terra tiger refurbished
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Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2014 at 11:52pm
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Dr.allis I have that 441 motor and it's for sale if you know of anybody.I can be reached at716-866-2114.it's apart and ready for reassembly, priced very reasonable.
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2014 at 6:33am
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How did it wind up in New York?? that's a long ways from Minnesota.
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Posted By: Jerald/KS
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2014 at 10:29am
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Sorry I missed your calls Billy, PM me.
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Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2014 at 6:59pm
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Jere setter from Kansas sold it to me.
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Posted By: Bled Orange
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2014 at 7:57pm
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hi new to forum. I am wanting to pull this year with our new club. the class is 6500 or 7000 lb no turbo farm and field class. what I need to know is what I can do to my 180 d . how much can I get out of her with the pump and injectors, any suggestions thanks.
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Posted By: Acllss puller
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2014 at 8:11pm
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NA you will get more out of a gasser.NA diesel will require a lot of head work.either way put some good injectors with that roosa, and a good cam grind. Maybe 100-150hp.
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2014 at 8:15pm
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2014 at 8:19pm
I have set up a few pump and injector combinations for similar to what you're wanting to do. I can easily get you more fuel, but being NA you'll just get to the point where it just smokes more and actually makes less power. pm me if you have more questions, Bled Orange.
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210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers!
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Posted By: Bled Orange
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2014 at 8:31pm
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thanks I will be going against 460 Ms some deeres maybe mm olivers. still want to farm her some
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Posted By: WildBill
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2014 at 11:12pm
Friendly Advice to you Bled orange I would find a gasser for that NA class. The 301D breathing on its own just doesn't wake up . 301D/NA has asthma and constipation !!! Welcome to the forum !! Lots of good people on here.
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Allis fan for life ! B,C,2-WC'S,WD45G,D19G,190xt ,LLSS 8010, terra tiger refurbished
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Posted By: Bled Orange
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2014 at 12:15pm
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thanks willbill but 180d what I got to play with so that's what I got to go with. the 185,d17,d14,and ca are all in used dayly. o and the ihate to say the johnd gets the most use I know but ac parts are hard to find round here.any help on the 180 will be appreciated.
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Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2014 at 5:02pm
I'm not sure how far you want to get into this, but what if you found an old 190 XT gas engine or a 301 gas of any sort. Find a spare pair of frame rails and build a light front axle. Frame rails and a front axle won't cost much. Build the engine to suit, complete with flywheel, clutch, radiator, fuel tank, etc. and stick it in the aforementioned frame and axle combo. When pulling season gets here, unbolt the diesel farm engine and roll in the gasser. Install your own sheet metal and off you go. My guess is that the gasser would be more competitive than the N/A diesel for a lot less $$.
Just a thought.
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