Wc or wd head for pulling?
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Topic: Wc or wd head for pulling?
Posted By: bigcountry48
Subject: Wc or wd head for pulling?
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2013 at 2:17pm
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I'm trying to build a pulling motor for my wc and I need you guys professional opinions about which head is better. I've got a wd45 block, wd45 crank, 4 in. High altitude pistons and rods. Which head would work best with my set up? I can do modifying if needed, but which head produces the highest compression and power? Thanks ahead! ------------- 1950 B, 1952 pulling wd, and 1954 wd45 |
Replies:
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2013 at 2:40pm
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previous posts on this topic have stated that there really isnt a difference performance wise. the plug location on the tall(45) head has been argued to be better. both heads are flat, no difference in compression. If your planning on pulling, the use of the tall head on older models like WC may not be allowed per rules. air flow wise, neither head flows well wihtout work for above stock performance.
I am no expert, but paraphrasing read posts to save you searching. ------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2013 at 10:57am
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It's not going to make any difference. Weather the spark plug location makes any difference or not isn't really worth thinking about, the rest of the head and these engines isn't verry "performance minded" and your spark plug is the least of your problems. The short head will save you some weight, both heads will offer the same compression ratio (ok the short head has just a slightly bigger plug pocket) but for all practical purposes it's not an issue.
------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2013 at 7:16pm
| What modifications can be done (to either head) to make it flow better? Is there anything the average Joe can do or does it have to be done by a machinist? |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2013 at 11:34am
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Takeing a bone stock head, there is little that you can do yourself to improve things without haveing some machine work done first. Lets just say you are useing your stock valves and just want to improve things all that you can with those valves. The stock seats are verry wide, and they are smaller diameter than the valve can use. Haveing a machine shop trim the valve bowls out and cutting the valve throat areas larger, cutting the seats larger to take full advantage of your valve diameter will help. Getting fresh and clean seat angles is a must. Hopefully your local machine shop will have the ability to cit a 3 angle seat. I've tested some things, just stick with a plain 45* seat angle. Back cutting the valves really didn't test any better. The thing that helped more was cutting a radius on the face of the valve, by this I mean simply putting your valve in the drill press and takeing a sanding disc and breaking the edge on the face of the valve. As the air comes through the seat area it goes past the valve, where the valve head is there's a void spot and the air curls around the edge to fill it. By cutting a radius on the face of the valve it helps the air flow around the valve with less turbulance. This is something simple you can do with basic tools you likely have. It doesn't take much trimming in the seat and bowl areas to make an improvement. The port is big enough for the rest of your parts. Trying to do the best you can to work a little radius in the corner where the port makes a T or goes to one cylinder or another will also help slightly, maybe if you have the tools to cut a nice radius. Shapeing your valve guides in the ports and trimming them back will also help some. There's a few things that most people can do themselves and spend little money with the machine shop to make an improvement. But I have to say, I've seen to many DIY jobs that they wasted their time and made a mess out of things. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: jpankey
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2013 at 11:48am
| kind of ironic that the above post says a back cut isn't worth while . When the miss allis 300 hp 226 engine sprint car thought it was important enough to mention the degree they used . the topic can be found in the farm section. when one today seams to think the head is hindering horsepower and the head was good for 300 hp in the mid 60s one may need to rethink their approach. |
Posted By: jpankey
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2013 at 12:36pm
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I will post this once more about back cuts for the sake of those who have trouble with the search. Then we get a valve curtain area formula and wi uses a 45 degree angle . Lets go with the 45 degree single angle wi proposed. If I move that 1.6 valve .100 of valve lift I have 72 thousandths of a inch gap for air to flow all around the valve . A 30 degree angle at .100 vave lift has a measurable gap of 87 thousandths of a inch . By this you can clearly see the advantage of a back cut at low lift . The top cut plays more into mid and full lift values . The correct top cut can easily raise mid lift by 20 cfm and more at full lift. Then there is also convergence and the stem diameter plays into those formulas as well. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2013 at 2:40pm
WIth this kind of logic it's no wonder you offered me $200 to see a properly ported head. It's a bargin compared to your time spent trying to pry information out of people and paying someone to give you numbers you can't make sense of.
I doubt most people can follow this but pankey's saying that the back cut increases the area, meaning that the valve can flow more air for a given lift.
But how does this work? Lets just take the above numbers and say that the valve has a 45 degree angle with a 30 degree back cut. The air flows through the bowl, around the 30 degree angle and into the 45 degree angle, out around the head of the valve and into the cylinder.
Well the back cut did not increase the curtain area did it. There is more area under the 30 degree angle of the valve yes (it's mathmatically proven) but the air still goes through the 45 degree seat angle, which is what it is, the minimum area air must psss to enter the cylinder. Therefore the curtain area is not increased.
Hang on and follow allong now pankey ( I know it's tough). The air still has to travel through it's minimum area.... your back cut did not increase that area, it only made the approach angle to that area different. Does this different approach help or hurt? Each situation is different but in this case of doing what a guy can do to his stock head to help himself out, as I stated above "it's not worth doing".
In my testing, this did not benifit the head any. It did increase a few CFM at low lift. But took some away past that. The total amount of airflow through the valves cycle was actually LESS. And anything we can do to increse the total amount under the curve is good. That's the benifit of being able to test these things on your own and gaining experience is that sometimes you find theings that work positive and somethings done have a negative effect.
When I install larger valves, cut in larger diameter seats, and cut in a different shaped valve bowl I have some gains by back cutting, but my whole approach to the valve is different. I'm out in fresh material where I can get away from the core shift from casting and have a much better angle leading into the valve seat angles.
------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
jpankey wrote:Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2013 at 3:11pm
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One othe thing you can do yourself is to radius the corners off in the intake manifold. WHere the carb neck transitions into the intake manifold runner is the hang up for the manifold. The air has to bend a sharp 90 degree corner. There's only so much air that is going to bend around that corner.
Once that corner is improved the manifold will flow more air, but your carbuerator is still the weak link. A lot of times I weld up the corner where the carb neck meets the intake manifold. Fill that area and then cut the largest radius I can. I bore a 1" hole in the back side of the manifold on each side of the carb neck area so I can get in there to cut a better radius. I use a 1" shallow cupped frost plug to plug this hole with a little sealer on the plug and simply tap it in untill it's flush on the inside (feel with your finger). Then you can grind off the excess plug sticking out the back and even fill with epoxy if you choose.
The next worst area is where the manifold turns to go into the cylinder head. This area I can access pretty good with a long shank carbide, I use a "flame shaped" or "teardrop shaped" carbide works best. I cut the bottom of the runner flat and roll a radius around the corner. I end up with an inverted D shape, or a flat bottom in the port. The air entering the engine will follow the bottom of the manifold runner. Cutting if flat in that corner helps and the longer radius helps. I'll put a smaller (3/4" diameter) grinding stone in a 1/4" drillbit extension to work around the radius more and help transition things.
The manifold runners are really big enough to move quite a bit of air, but the corners are the hang ups. SOmetimes I'll tip the manifold upside down and put some epoxy in the top corner of the runner where it comes straight out from the head. The air follows the floor in that bend and the top is a dead area. Filling it may or may not help, but sure won't hurt anything. It only helps direct the air into the runner leading to the head. There's usually a little datum point cast on the outside, I'll drill through it and put a small screw or bolt through so the epoxy has one more thing to grab to make sure it can't come loose. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: jpankey
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2013 at 4:35pm
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wi if I remember right ml tried to bet with you . His bet was if I remember right that you couldn't back up the flow numbers you claimed . You pretty well proved that when you didn't send that head down for him to test now didn't you . miss allis 300 hp in the mid 60s and no aluminum girdle.lol ps hows the indy cylinder head and turbos doing for you this season? some people can take a little increase and beat those who don't . nascar engineers love a little increase and always looking for a little. like I said when your thinking is proven off you should consider rethinking like the miss allis. I know you've done it on the cubic inch side by saying now you build large bore stroker engines so ml must have got you to rethink that from when you first appeared on the site. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2013 at 5:41pm
I wonder why it is the MP's of this world can not understand the difference between a basically stock tractor engine running at 1600 rpm and a hopped up one running a 6,000? ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: BennyLumpkin
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2013 at 5:45pm
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And the saga continues....seems Pankey's are all tarred with the same stick so it seems. We need to once again remind him to hang up the pissing contest and stop bringing up things that don't pertain to the subject. ------------- Central PA Allis Express 1934 WC254 1945 WF 1945 WC135755 1951 WD68085 1953 WD45-150217 1957 WD45D-230744D B110 |
Posted By: jpankey
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2013 at 6:41pm
as for the heads 4 inch head is better . if it just came down to cooling . A engine with warm oil and cool coolant makes the most donkeys and the head that has the most coolant capacity is ...... |
Posted By: ACFarmer
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2013 at 6:55pm
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It seems this pankey starts the same things as the last. Why is this one still here? All I see is a man that shows his work, and has plenty of info to provide and he does everytime somebody asks a question. As well as run a Super stock puller. (WI50) and another man(maybe) that gets on here, claims a bunch of things that every once in a great while he backs up, rarely with pics or anything of the like. And then runs the first guys stuff into the ground. I get tired of reading the constant crap that this pankey starts on every topic. ------------- Making A living everyday farming with and working on Allis Equipment |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2013 at 9:18pm
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Well I can always answer questions with truth and logic. I'll answer pankeys question as to why I didn't send him a cylinder head with the same truth and logic. A. He's got no way to test it. B. He's a proven liar and in generally FOS. C. It's being used..or at least it's bolted to a running engine. D. All the above. The answer or answers are easy. I know we've covered this before, it's no surprise we have to change the subject and cover it again. For those of you new to this, a few years ago I had posted some flow numbers in a thread where someone was asking some questions. I had outlined the process of how it was done and posted some pictures as to how the results were achieved through filling areas of the head, modifying ports, basically makeing new intake ports in a head. To make a long story short our boys in east TN weren't bright enough to grasp such a subject and offered me a couple hundred bucks to send the part down there. Don't worry, we know how the thread will turn out. We started a thread in which someone asked a few simple questions as to how they can help themselves find a bit more power and the VI is up to his old antics. At least with enough blocked IP adresses he can only be stupid part of the time and not all the time. It's happens all the time. Someone thinks they can improve on a part or an engine they bought only to end up working hard and going backwards in performance.....oops sorry pank. It's a familular situation for you that's been pointed out in the past. This thread about what a guy can do himself is another example of how what a guy thinks isn't what's always best to do. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: THE-MAN
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2013 at 9:38pm
| Wi, what do you think ever happened to that BIIIIG motor Norman...er...Panker was sooo busy molesting? Never heard another word about it. That was back in what? May? Must be in the shop next to his Gleason..Maybe he will finally show Butch(oh) a picture.. |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 6:53am
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I hear that the all-Thread/ready rod factory burnt down and they are S.O.L for head studs  |
Posted By: THE-MAN
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 9:16am
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Na, Butch, he probably got on the Unnofficial ALLTHREAD chat forum and exposed to them how they were doing it wrong, and that he knew better ,so they up n closed down. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 10:35am
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You sure it wasn't the schedule 80 all thread factory that burned down. I been looking all over for schedule 80 all thread since pankey introduced us to it and I haven't found any to date. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 10:58am
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Maybe also from the motor-sic-all industry???
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Posted By: WF owner
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 3:45pm
If I had known what a can of worms I was opening, I wouldn't have asked, but thank you for your INTELLIGENT answers Marty! You explain things so even a guy with no engine building experience (like me) can understand, even if I don't dare try it. I long ago learned to do what I do well and leave the other stuff to the pros. If I ever decide to build an all-out pulling engine, I will be talking to you Marty!!! |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 5:29pm
You didn't open any can o worms. Like a fellow said, "If you can't dazzle em with your brilliance, baffle em with your BS" and most of us KNOW where the brilliance is  ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: jpankey
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 8:38pm
| according to Ml that motor with the fire rings and all thread studs was whipping up on the natpa kids before they could spell fire ring. I am sure he will be posting pictures of the finished project on yt pulling forum where it can be appreciated by pullers. |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 8:58pm
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There was all thread at TSC tonight should you need it to finish up but I am not sure if it meets Pank spec schedule 80 or not? Was this also the motor that contains the world's only known forged casting crankshaft??? On a positive note I am glad to see you come clean on the shop deal, "part owner", which part? broom closet? We can now lay to rest one lie. |
Posted By: THE-MAN
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 9:55pm
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Mitch, you are your own worst enemy. Doug Henderson has been making fire ring head gaskets on big inch MM's, Olivers, Allis' and IH for 20 years. Thats who taught me. You think you are so special because you bought an old Shipman engine. Dude, seriously, thats like cheating off the jock's test answers! You may have seen it done now, but that does not make it the best way. Like your pistons that come out the bottom.. Like STAR WARS said "Who is worse,The fool or the fool who follows the fool?" Ive been in more builders engines than you ever will. Guys like Shipman, Bos, Kolberg, Barney, Zyrup, Birdsong, Motec, Chuck Lewis, and a few others. Ive helped guys like Doug and Baker do stuff. I get back and fourth with Lawrence Wilson on ideas..Wi50 is a friend, and we've worked on alot of stuff together...What Im getting at is this..There are multiple ways of skinning a cat .Not all of them are correct. I may not have half the understanding guys like LW and Wi have, but, Ill tell you this. For a guy who rehashes someone else's worn out junk, cant show his work, is a proven liar, and does not pull (winning as the only tractor in the class does not count on your daddys Jd) you sure think you are something special. |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 6:18am
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Oh, so this was a purchased engine eh? Sorry Pank, I didn't know pulling engine builders outsourced engines for their own pullers. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 8:01am
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Butch, to "pull" in public, wouldn't you want something that could run the whole length of the track ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Ken(MI)
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 8:09am
| Since the last "Worlds fair of Goat Roping" I got involved in here turned into banishments, I haven't been back. Last night I decided to take another look at this Forum..... Some things never change. Marty and a few others, as always have good advice to share, and as for some others, it may be best to ignore. As for fire rings, we were using them in the early eighties and it was old news at that point. Marty's porting advice is spot on for these engines, keep it simple and if you don't know what you are doing, don't do anything. That being said, these parts are plentiful and cheap, so don't be afraid to experiment, contrary to what you may read here, a flow bench and a sonic measuring device are not absolute necessities, the old try one thing at a time and test method has produced some pretty impressive results. |
Posted By: Glockhead SWMI
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 8:23am
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I would bet goat ropers somewhere are making jokes at Panks expense... |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 8:28am
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Hi Ken! Pay closer attention
 This aint ML, this is his brother,,, |
Posted By: Ken(MI)
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 8:37am
| And I'm guessing the family tree resembles a fence post...Probably couldn't get your big toe wet in that gene pool. Too bad this forum is only good for entertainment these days, there used to be a really good exchange of quality information here, before most of us got fed up with it. My hat is off to Dr. Allis, Marty and a few others, as for the Bros, so it goes, down the toilet with all their BS. What ever happened to the Gleason? |
Posted By: WildBill
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 8:42am
this sux I thought that JACKWAGON was banned from here ? I was off here for 6 months and jpank is still on here ?
MITCH GO BUY A JOHN DEERE AND RAG ON THOSE PEOPLE!!! please leave this to Allis fans who want to share ideas and make good friends !!!------------- Allis fan for life ! B,C,2-WC'S,WD45G,D19G,190xt ,LLSS 8010, terra tiger refurbished |
Posted By: Ihateillinoisnazis
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 3:40pm
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Wow, I just read on here now days... But I think it's time to break out the nazihater skills again. It truely is impressive how numb these Pankey folk are to reality and the truth. Hey spunk, the other day I walked past one of our crank balancing machines in the engine plant... Should I go ask the guy if I can flip the switch and muble some hillbilly jargon? Where's your Gleason?? |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 6:28pm
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well that ought te be enough pankey drama for a while. He's over on ytmag now crying and showing a complete lack of comprehension to Gary Baker because someone gave praise to a half dozen or so people who know what they're doing. Anyway now for a little usefull information. The 201 and 226 intake valves are 1.68" diameter. The seats in these heads overhang the valve bowls some so the air gets to jerk around the back side of the seat before it can find it's way to the valve. I've filled the back sides of the seats to eliminate that edge. In theory it should help. But the flowbench doesn't care what I think and the bench doesn't lie. It made no difference on the test when I tested by putting some epoxy under the seat to make a nicer transition. On the slightly modified smaller engines like a 240 cid overbore engine a nice little upgrade is to use a slightly larger intake valve. John Deere 201, 239, 329 etc engines from the Dibuque family of engines use a intake valve that is for all practical purposes identical in length the the Allis valve. Same stem size, you can simply trim the seats and bowls large enough to accept the Deere valve which is 1.77" or so in diameter. This isn't a big change but it will get the seats trimmed out and clean up the core shift in these heads. It's a simple swap and helps gain some intake flow. When the engines get bigger, I use other automotive valves and cut them down to size, sleeve the guides, use small diameter retainers and springs etc. Sometimes I go for a 1.85", sometimes up to a 2.08 intake valve depending on the head and application. But for most of the slow speed, 2100 and less RPM I stay less than a 1.9" intake valve. This is because on these engines the manifold and carb are to small to feed a larger valve, the velocity just dropps for a larger valve with only a given amount of air available to it. Velocity is verry important. With that nasty 900 degree corner in the head, there's only so much air that's going to bend around it. These heads peak out on flow at a fairley low lift because of that corner. When I fill the areas and cut the corner back, things improve greatly. But of course this is all done for large displacement slow running engines or smaller displacement fast running engines. The Deere exhaust valve also transfer in fine, but will require a little work on the seats. The Allis exhaust valve is fine for most of these applications. An engine is loud because of a sonic crack generated by high velocity exhaust gasses going past the exhaust valve. The exhaust valve is opened when there's a fair bit of cylinder pressure yet before BDC on the power stroke. This has a "blow down" effect. You don't need a verry big exhaust valve, you still want the cylinder bleeding off and fairley high velocity past the exhaust valve as the piston reaches TDC and the intake valve begins to open to help draw in a fresh charge and get the cycle started again. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: jpankey
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 7:09pm
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Posted By: THE-MAN
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2013 at 8:32pm
| :) |