pulling carb
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Other Topics
Forum Name: Pulling Forum
Forum Description: Forum dedicated to Tractor and Garden Pulling
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=75755
Printed Date: 24 Nov 2024 at 12:05am
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Topic: pulling carb
Posted By: patrickmull
Subject: pulling carb
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 6:04pm
| what is a good carb for a WC puller 350 CI engine and what kind of modifications do you make on them |
Replies:
Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 6:30pm
| RPM range? |
Posted By: Romaninmi
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 6:31pm
| I had good luck with a d17 carb with the plastic Venturi from a 175 a good agco dealer can get these yet I drilled out the main jet a small amount that fed 343 motor good never lacked fuel |
Posted By: patrickmull
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 6:38pm
| we pull 4 mph 20% i talked to a fellow he said if you go to big you lose vacuum |
Posted By: Romaninmi
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 6:45pm
| I never had a problem with that remember the stock carb is feeding 226 cubes you added over 100 cubes that takes more air more fuel to work good I am no expert but that set up worked good for me |
Posted By: patrickmull
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2013 at 6:50pm
| also what gov housing and weight do you like and what do you do to mod them |
Posted By: cotncrzy
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 8:23am
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I am running a carb off an EIII Gleaner combine engine. I think it's a tsx 853, there isnt any fuel problems there. I need to do some work on the manifold and the carb. after each pull there will be a light frost around where they bolt togather, telling me..... There is a restriction??? I assume I am right, I too am a rookie, soaking in knowledge from the vets. on here. ------------- C, WD45,WD puller, 185, 200, 7060 Red Belly, 7060 Black Belly,8010, and a R52 Gleaner, AND PROUD OF THEM! |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 9:44am
|
My B frosts also! Would like to know why. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: THE-MAN
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 1:36pm
| MM 670 super with 1 1/16 -1.25 Venturi. That is a conservative recommendation btw |
Posted By: BennyLumpkin
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 1:59pm
|
I wanna know how to get 350ci out of a 226! PM me with info if you care to share some insight. ------------- Central PA Allis Express 1934 WC254 1945 WF 1945 WC135755 1951 WD68085 1953 WD45-150217 1957 WD45D-230744D B110 |
Posted By: Glockhead SWMI
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 3:07pm
|
Big bore and stroke Benny! The frosting is due to the venturi effect. Its normal. |
Posted By: Kip-Utah
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 4:45pm
|
I've also had good luck with a MS 853 Gleaner carb...but I'm only feeding 240 cubes at 2100 RPM on my WC. I still think that this carb or a similar MS 454 off a WD45 or early D17 would be a good place to start. Send yours to Steve @ B&B and tell him what you're running, you'll get back a better than new looking sweet performing carb! Kip ------------- HANSEN'S OLD ORANGE IRON. Showing, Pulling, & Going!! |
Posted By: patrickmull
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 5:47pm
| 4,3125"x 6" that is 350.55 |
Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 7:13pm
| No one yet has mentioned a Zenith. Any one using one and happy with it ? I have always thought an M~S was easier to service, easier to tune. |
Posted By: patrickmull
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 7:32pm
| i am using a zenith from a 44 MH and not happy at all that's why the post |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 7:52pm
| What "The Man" said works fine. A 190 XT carb works great too with a modified intake manifold and electric fuel pump. |
Posted By: Juiceman
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 8:49pm
| Are you guys getting 350ci with the 226 block? New to allis and have a wd45 id like to build for the 4000 and 4500. So any information will be appreciated. Thanks |
Posted By: patrickmull
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 9:03pm
| yes gleaner e |
Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 9:12pm
|
I always used brand new Zenith replacement carbs for an engine of about the same cubes stock as the one I was building. Like "The Man" said, M670 Moline - 354 cid stock.
The brand new Zenith carbs have universal linkage - which makes them easy to adapt.
Then, you need to learn the hard way about jetting, air bleeds, emulsion tubes - like the rest of us did. LOL
------------- There isn't much a WC can't do. WD's just do it better. |
Posted By: THE-MAN
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2013 at 9:36pm
|
Thx Hudsonator .Look at it like this. I had Wi50 do some flow work for me when I first built my 327. The gleaner/45 carb flows about 100 cfm. The mm 670 super ( tsx 901) flows 125-135. Somewhere in there. Last time I looked that's 25% more. The gleaner e manifold is the superior choice, and it flows about 125 cfm STOCK. 125 cfm carb 125 cfm manifold...obviously it's " less wrong ." Now, on my 327 that's 11 to 1, Barney cam @ 105, I still had to drill the main jet out. I would suggest about .025 smaller than your jet size. Otherwise it gets REALLY sensitive to adjust. My manifold will flow ALOT more than stock. The 901 is in my opinion a bit small IF I'm going to run over 1400 or so . I proved that on the dyno. I have not gotten a chance to finish my new carb. However I did build one out of a zenith that added over 12 hp at 1800 but l LosT 4 hp on the lowside. But I got the fix for that on my bench. |
Posted By: jpankey
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2013 at 4:17pm
| Jack Coronett uses a g Moline carb on his 350 inch allis engines. Barney Taylor does also on his 392 cubic inch engines .Jt Richardson used a usx21 on his 392 inch engines and Mlpankey used one from 310 inches to 402 cubic inches. Jamey Sigmon with the yellow ca will back up JT Richardson using and recommending a usx 21 carb. |
Posted By: THE-MAN
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2013 at 8:31pm
| U series. G, all the 283, 336 403 mm's had the same basic M-S body. The 670 super had the biggest Venturi. As I recall, after doing HOURS of testing for our own benefit, WI50 said the usx was a pooch on the bench. EVERY THING he has ever machined for me or information he has given me has been exactly perfect.... So I'm inclined to agree. Now the only larger carbs I have dealt with are the zenith military carbs. I Like them, alot. But you need some cubes or RPM to utilize one to it's fuller potential. Or an engine that will stay together for more than a run or two. OR an engine. |
Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2013 at 11:15pm
|
My only hangup with M~S carbs is - where do you find small parts for them?
I'm having that problem with my farming Allis' - not to mention trying to modify an old carbs for pulling. I accidentally found a brand new load needle and jet assembly for a 3020 JD M~S that fixed my 45 powered WD. The ethanol content of modern gas is causing me to have to jet up - but I can't find new jets if I go too far with my step drills(ya know what I mean?).
So anybody with a good supplier of marvel small parts: like load assemblies, idle jets, emulsion tubes, etc - I would sure appreciate knowing about them. ------------- There isn't much a WC can't do. WD's just do it better. |
Posted By: THE-MAN
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2013 at 5:54am
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Other than what treadwell carb company In NY has, I constantly am Buying cores at junkyards swap meets etc. I am completely ignorant on emulsion tubes I HEARD of tweaking them, but I haven't had a chance to experiment. |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2013 at 6:31am
| In my experience, the M/S carbs seem to perform a little better to around 300 cubes or a fuzz over, and allows you a little more room to modify. The trick with these updraft carbs is to increase air speed. Faster air speed with just the right fuel mix makes for some pretty nice torque curves on any cube engine. I have to say, with bigger cubes, those larger M/S TSX 901's, & 950's work out quite nice. The big toilet bowl Zeniths off the 190XT engines messaged over a smidge work nice on the big inch motors. The 464 carb off the WD45, and the 871 M/S with some mod's work real nice up into the 300 cubic inch range and gives you a little room to dial it in. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2013 at 9:54am
|
Read this. It's a little tough to read through someone's ignorance but there's some good information I took the time to post and don't need to again as far as air speed, how to figure venture size, and some carb modifications. http://www..com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65113&KW=speed+of+sound+mach&PN=2&title=carburetor-for-wc-puller" rel="nofollow - http://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65113&KW=speed+of+sound+mach&PN=2&title=carburetor-for-wc-puller I'm not sure if that link works but search for a thread "carburetor for wc puller" by SuperM74. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2013 at 10:27am
|
Steve,
Can you get small parts for these carbs, M-S and Zenith? ------------- There isn't much a WC can't do. WD's just do it better. |
Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2013 at 11:01am
I can't give specifics on fuel circuitry modifications on tractor carbs - because I haven't gone in depth with them.
All I can say is the new replacement zeniths have removable idle air bleeds than need to be tweaked - as most are too small. So small they create an air-lock in the idle circuit that makes it behave more like a drinking straw (rich) than anything properly emulsifying the fuel. They'll fool you with an A/F meter, because they run rich when siphoning raw fuel (like sucking tea through a straw) - then lean out drasticly in short bursts when the circuit's signal collapses because it can't pull the un-emulsified liquid weight of the fuel (taking your mouth off the straw).
A screw up in your idle circuit will screw up the A/F all the way through the carb's function - as it has a huge bearing on the overall A/F ratio even when the main circuit is drawing. To be honest, the majority of problems with fuel circuitry I've found are in the idle circuit - not the main circuit (Load circuit in a tractor carb).
I've done alot of tweaking on Harley-Linkert and Keihn carbs, Weber carbs, Carter 1 barrel B&B's, and early Carter AFB's that have the emulsion tubes attached to the boosters. But, we're not dealing with any of those here - and I have not transferred what I've learned from them to give any advice on tractor carbs other than what I've stated on the zenith idle bleeds.
Now you know why I'm interested in small parts? I actually need to get in depth on this issue to keep my old iron in the field with the bullcrap fuel blends being sold these days. The variations in ethanol content have changed the properties of the circuits - and I need to fix that for myself - BADLY. ------------- There isn't much a WC can't do. WD's just do it better. |
THE-MAN wrote:Posted By: jpankey
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2013 at 5:07pm
| a g Moline carb was on a 75 hp 402 ci I believe and if worked over will make 100 hp on dyno . the stock usx bolted on make 15 to 20 hp more on dyno . remember bernoulis principle fpr velocity to increase pressure decreases on front side of orifice/ venturi and pressure increases and velocity decreases on backside to push fluid motion through orifice/ venturi. the point where the fuel vaporizes is also where the heat is pulled from cause it takes heat to vaporize saturated vapor and frost can start due to the heat of air being absorbed down to the dew point. This frost can if builds thick enough reduce the orifice to a smaller size . |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2013 at 7:03am
|
Hudsonator,
I have a lot of parts, most are stock replacement parts. Have parts cores, etc. A wall full of rebuild kits. The puller carbs I build are based on engine size. Most so far have been for under 300 cube engines. I like customizing the TSX464's and other large bore M/S carbs in that particular family of carburetors...
mailto:Steve@B&B" rel="nofollow - Steve@B&B
|
Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2013 at 7:45am
That's great! Can you get new-replacement Zenith carbs too?
It'll be a pleasure doing business with you - if I'm not mistaken you are a fellow Inliner enthusiast too.------------- There isn't much a WC can't do. WD's just do it better. |
Posted By: patrickmull
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2013 at 3:18am
| well i went with the tsx 464 with some work and a larger venturi the tractor pulled a lot better |
Posted By: Glockhead SWMI
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2013 at 8:45am
| Good job! |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2013 at 8:46am
|
Ahhh... see them 464's work nice messaged over a tad.. Hudsonator, sorry I didn't get back to your post. I don't visit down on this part of the site much. I can get Zenith's, but it seems you're very limited with them. The M/S carbs seem to be a tad more broader for coverage for big and small engines. Parts availability is a little better also...
mailto:Steve@B&B" rel="nofollow - Steve@B&B
|
Posted By: patrickmull
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2013 at 12:47pm
| that's OK I pulled at Elnora IN last Fri. she did a good job got 2nd in the 4000# class a good running and well built WD45 got me so you don't mind as bad |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2013 at 8:49am
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Hudsonator,
10-4 on the inliner guy! I've built quite a few drag race inline Chevy sixes in the early days! At present, I have this inline Chevy 4 banger 153 cube (.030 over) going in my 67' Nova Wagon when my Nephew gets the body whipped into shape. Love the inlines man! Had many a phone call to CA to Jack Clifford back in the early 70's. We could make em' fly! Used to tick off a lot of V8 guys. It was a lot of fun back then!
mailto:Steve@B&B" rel="nofollow - Steve@B&B
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