6138 TRUCK ENGINE?
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
Forum Description: everything else with orange (or yellow) paint
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=74441
Printed Date: 26 Nov 2024 at 8:01pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 6138 TRUCK ENGINE?
Posted By: big al
Subject: 6138 TRUCK ENGINE?
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2013 at 6:03pm
| FOUND OUT THAT AFTER THE BIG WIGS AT CORP.DECIDED TO STOP OFFERING THE 25000 TRUCK ENGINE IN 1976,THE PURPLE PROGRAM CONTINUED ON.BY THE END OF THE EARLY 80'S THE ENGINE SEEN OVER A HUNDRED UPDATES.IT WAS READY TO GO BACK IN THE TRUCK,IN FACT THE ENGINE WAS ABUSE TESTED AT 675HP WITHOUT ANY FAILURES!!!THIS WAS ALL CONFIRMED TODAY BUY THE TWO ENGINEERS THAT HEADED THE PROGRAM.APPARENTLY THE ENGINE WAS READY TO GO BUT ALLIS WAS BLEEDING TO DEATH(REMEMBER THIS WAS THE RECESSION WHEN NOTHING WAS SELLING AND IF YOU COULD GET A LOAN IT WAS 20%+INTEREST)JEFF AND I ARE WORKING WITH THE RETIRED ENGINEERS TO GO OVER THERE DOCUMENTS TO BUILD SOME OF THESE MOTORS. |
Replies:
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2013 at 6:06pm
| Wish it coulda been a reality, |
Posted By: HD6 Merv
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2013 at 9:40pm
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wonder what box it would have had behind it ?? Biggest roadranger back then would have been a 1200 series ?? ------------- tits tyres and tracks they all cost you money |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2013 at 6:52pm
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Update please ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2013 at 8:43pm
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I had a late 25000 MK II a few years ago that was high enough serial # to have all the updates that the 6138 had. 900hrs. Finally sold it for $3500. Would have made a great truck engine but too many projects. ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: big al
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2013 at 10:25pm
| JEFF H. & I FOUND A STASH OF SOME BIG AL PARTS OUT EAST,GOING TO SEE A PARTS LIST SHORTLY.GOING TO SEND A TRUCK BELL HOUSING TO A PATTERN MAKER IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF MONTHS AND CAST APPROX.25 OF THEM.WE WILL MACHINE OVER THE WINTER AND WOULD BE AVAILABLE NEXT YEAR WITH A MATCHING FLYWHEEL.GOING TO RECEIVE ALL THE PURPLE ENGINE SALES BROCHURES TO POST NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS(301-844)RECEIVING NEXT BATCH OF FILES FROM THE ENGINEER IN THE NEXT MONTH.HAVE MORE TO TELL ABOUT 6138.FOUND DOCUMENT DATED 1972 DISCUSSING ENGINE BRAKE WITH JACOBS.GUY IN CHARGE OF PROJECT DIED AND PROJECT GOT BURIED. |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2013 at 6:26pm
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This just keeps gittin better. Keep the info coming ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 7:40pm
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Bump. Update? ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2013 at 11:15pm
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Just wondering if somebody knows what the difference is between the Thousand Series and the MK2 engines. I always assumed it was piston cooling, but it appears the piston cooling came before the MK2 designation- on the 11000 at least. Maybe an official source would know. I'm also curious about the Japanese crankshafts... Interesting thread, I like these old stories. I was reading in an old Reporter magazine from the early seventies how Allis had a whole fleet of Mack Western FS-700 trucks with Allis Chalmers 25000 diesels, pulling parts out of the Carol Stream warehouse. (375 hp) Pretty impressive- we're talking about an era when a big farm tractor had 200 hp, and if you wanted big power, you needed a big engine. Not like today, when we're making big power with relatively small power plants.
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Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2013 at 7:24pm
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BTT for update ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: cumminskta600
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2013 at 8:36pm
| @ Lazyt Can you please scan and give more info on the Allis reporter you are talking about- Jeff |
Posted By: Lazyts
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2013 at 9:55pm
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It was actually an article about the Allis parts warehouse, (Carol Stream, IL) originally printed in "Diesel and Gas Turbine Progress" magazine. All it really says about the trucks is this: "The Parts Division has recently taken delivery of 22 new replacement units for its fleet: these are Mack series FS-700 tractors built by Mack Western and are all powered with the Allis-Chalmers 25000 engine, producing 375 horsepower at 2100 rpm." (Allis-Chalmers Reporter magazine, Vol. 33 No. 1)
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Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2013 at 4:37pm
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Btt again. I for one is still interested in this one ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
Posted By: CAL(KS)
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2013 at 7:42pm
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another bump and question so after reading above post about having parts cast, is there is a special bellhousing/ adapter that is needed to put one of these engines in a truck? im curious as to the feasability of putting a 6120 (4w-305 or 8550) into a truck. no it wouldnt be a purple truck engine but what exactly is required to mate to truck trans. ie flywheel and clutch? I was thinking the bellhousings were standardized to accomodate a common pattern among all engines? or is it standard on the trans side? what would a person need to accomplish this?
------------- Me -C,U,UC,WC,WD45,190XT,TL-12,145T,HD6G,HD16,HD20 Dad- WD, D17D, D19D, RT100A, 7020, 7080,7580, 2-8550's, 2-S77, HD15 |
Posted By: cumminskta600
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2013 at 8:09pm
| Hello, The 6120 Block is the same as the 6138. You would need a SAE 1 Bell housing/flywheel to accept a 14'' or 15/1/2'' clutch |
Posted By: cumminskta600
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2013 at 8:11pm
| Also, rear sealing/Crank surface is critical on these engines so jamming a CUMMINS Bellhousing up would not work on the back of a Allis Chalmers for example..... Hope that helps. Jeff |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2013 at 9:06pm
| we have a block if anyone is in need..... |
Posted By: Calvin Schmidt
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 8:34am
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My un-educated guess is that the best source of a SAE bellhousing suitable for a truck application would be from an old genset. I'm sure A-C built a lot more gensets with the 844 engine then they did for trucks. ------------- Nothing is impossible if it is properly financed |
Posted By: cumminskta600
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 8:40am
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what is your block a 6138 or a 25000, I am interested. Hello Calvin, I wish they were that simple but most gensets had a SAE "0" Bell housing and a Automotive application usually takes a SAE "1" For a Big transmission for the big al. I am also looking for a guy in NY who called me over the summer said he had a 25000 on a air compressor. He wanted 8500.00 for it and Id like to tak to him again |
Posted By: cumminskta600
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2013 at 8:41am
| Interested in your Block 6120,6138, 25000? |
Posted By: tbran
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2013 at 7:13pm
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The block we have came out of a 8550- it still has some rods but no crank. |
Posted By: cumminskta600
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2013 at 10:31pm
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What do you want for it? |
Posted By: Buckeye Chalmers
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2013 at 10:35pm
| Does anyone have a copy of the Reporter that features the purple engine? |
Posted By: cumminskta600
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2013 at 6:31am
| I wish |
Posted By: cumminskta600
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2013 at 12:06pm
| I made a page on Facebook I put a lot of pics up of the BIG AL engine it is labeled ALLIS CHALMERS BIG AL TRUCK ENGINE. |
Posted By: DonDittmar
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2013 at 7:15pm
I haven't been able to find it. Can you post a link? ------------- Experience is a fancy name for past mistakes. "Great moments are born from great opportunity" 1968 D15D,1962 D19D Also 1965 Cub Loboy and 1958 JD 720 Diesel Pony Start |
cumminskta600 wrote:Posted By: cumminskta600
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2013 at 10:06pm
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Don do you have a Facebook page? |
Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2013 at 4:41am
| Bump. I find your Big Al info interesting. Thanks for sharing. |
Posted By: Oldred
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2013 at 10:04am
This means a 6138 would be a fairly easy swap into a 4W305 if the blocks are same ? Is the 25000 series the same block also or different ? Is the lowest horsepower rating around 375 ?
Thanks for any info Mark
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Posted By: cumminskta600
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2013 at 1:08pm
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Hello Mark, Yes a 6138 back of engine block bolt pattern is the same. My Friend Jack said that they detuned the 6138 to a 6120 because the Transmission wouldn't take the torque/abuse of the 6138 but I would imagine if you are gentle things might stay together. Well you should be able to detune the pump to any specs that you would want with in reason to ease the pain on the transmission. |
Posted By: Oldred
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2013 at 1:45pm
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I have seen a couple of the 4W305's with a 855 cummins one at 300hp and the other at 350hp. The swap costs around 20g including a decent 855. If the 6138 was aquired at a reasonable cost there shouldn't be too much else to change to make fit so it could be more cost effective, maybe even keep the twin turbos if the 6120 exhaust manifolds will bolt to the 6138. Mark |
Posted By: jasmesmic
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2013 at 9:41pm
| I read all your information its very interesting. |
Posted By: Transaxial
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2019 at 1:54pm
| I realize this thread is 5 years old but this subject is 40-50 years old so here goes. First to Oldred. Are you the guy that bought my blown 731 in about 1990? IIRC someone from Rimbey bought it and I see you are very close to there. If so I would like to catch up with you sometime and see what you have been up to for the last 30 years! On the subject of the thread, I replaced the 731 with a small cam NTC 350 into my 8550 because of high parts cost from Agco, much better availability of used engines and parts from Cummins, 9 gal/hr with the Cummins vs 14 with the 731, much better starting engine, much better pulling engine, and on and on. I have been extremely happy with the conversion and still own the tractor and could go to work with it this afternoon if needed. I designed and had a local machine shop build a bell housing to mate the Cummins to the AC 24" bolt circle transmission housing. I pieced together a two plate 14" Cummins dish flywheel and modified a Lipe pressure plate with the release fingers removed and added more springs to hold on the 12" Allis friction plates that had the right spline for the input shaft. I know this is going the wrong way for what the discussion is to install this block in a truck, but it could be machined the other way. A couple of years ago there were some interesting threads on this forum about what happened in the Allis head office that allowed a transmission out of a 150 hp 2 wd to wind up in a 300 hp 4wd. I started a thread "did the bean counters take charge" or something like that, and a very smart and interesting guy from high up in AC responded. 427435 who was a regular contributor, and sadly we lost him a couple of years ago, gave a great response that went something like this. AC is bleeding red, no R and D money, stick the 20 speed PD trans into the 8550 and speed it up to 2800 rpm so the torque will be less than 600 ft lbs, put a fuel limiter in the Bosch style fuel pump to cut the fuel under 2500 rpm, even at WOT. All to get a tractor out on the market which has dried up to 1200 units total across all makes and models in the mid eighties. This was the second last attempt to save a dying company. Except for the 305 which was the last and actually turned out to be a pretty good tractor. My 8550 with the NTC350 was and still is, a really good tractor if you do your heavy pulling in 5th gear low range in the drop box and low range in the PD. Straight through the main transmission. I have long believed that AC had a great engine in the 844 made to pull at 18-2100 rpm. Every bit as big and beefy as Cummins or Cat. It would be cool to see what that 844 could do in a truck. |
Posted By: Transaxial
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2019 at 1:58pm
Hi Mark. Are you the guy that bought my 731 in about 1990? I did a writeup in an old thread and just wanted to give you a heads up via a quote. |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2019 at 12:47pm
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Transaxial, I see Mark was last on in April of this year, you might send him a pm that goes to his email, incase he doesn't check in for a while longer. ------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: allisguy.11
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2019 at 8:07am
| This winter we lost Jeff Heitman..... he was totally dedicated to the history, research and preservation of these engines. The facebook auction page just sold one of his purple engines and there is a yellow 25000 on there being sold now. |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2019 at 10:16am
| Dang I missed that one , Do you know what the purple engine brought ? Also was there anyone to contact on information on it ? |
Posted By: allisguy.11
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2019 at 9:28am
| brought close to 10k... broke front crank but complete |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2019 at 9:36am
| Oh wow ! Thanks |
Posted By: Oldred
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2022 at 2:15am
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Sorry I missed this thread from a couple years ago. Lol Transaxle, No I did not buy your 731 engine. I did however come to your farm about 10 years ago and looked at your 8070 that you were selling and then we went and checked out your 8550. I bought a 4W305 way out by Melfort Sask soon after we chatted and been using it on my JD 9501 PT combine and large rental manure spreader. |
Posted By: Transaxial
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2022 at 1:53pm
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Hi Mark. We seem to keep missing each other on this forum! If you get this message and want to catch up sometime give me a call 780 662 2614 I suspect we will have lots to talk about! |
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 1:41pm
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Thing now is the EPA and the emmissions from engines - And if CARB rules of Calif get pushed harder the diesel will be a item of history . ------------- Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something. "Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful." |
Posted By: 8070nc
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2022 at 2:58pm
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Ive got 6138TI in a DES 300 AC genset. 300 hours. Sounds like a locomotive. I start it every couple weeks just to hear it run and to warm it up to keep condensation out ------------- 1984 80780 1957 D14 DES 300 with 25000 engine 616 tractor |