516 in D 21 puller QUESTIONS
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72275
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Topic: 516 in D 21 puller QUESTIONS
Posted By: DarrylinWA
Subject: 516 in D 21 puller QUESTIONS
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 12:52am
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Hello, I found another 516 to possible put in my D 21 pulling tractor. The cube limit is 500 CI. I was wondering if anyone put sleaves in these tractors and ran smaller pistens to get it under 500 CI. I know Gary Karlen pulls one of these engines in his tractor (516 maybe bigger cubes) but I am looking at other options. Talked a bunch in the past and will talk to him again in the near future . Much other people running these engines or all 426? Both are runners and have not bad of hrs and can here them run both for $4000 range. In N 7 combines right now. I dont want to build a 426 and maybe still going with a small cube 5.9 cummins and build to the hill just because I have some good diesel shops that might get into the sponsorship of this. Will be in the 900 to 1300 HP range. Single turbo. I have the former "Destination Unknown" chassis driven by Gary Hagel and built by Chris Pickler in Mondovi WI. I bought last year. All redone and custom painted and just waiting for the engine. (Will pull next year, GOTO is #1 on the list) Just seeing and will post something on pulloff.com later on. Thanks in advanced Darryl Krause Lynden WA. ------------- B 10 Custom. Serial # 1001 D21, First D21 built 69 #4498 and Last D 21 Built #4609. 1946 MM UTU. And 2000, 2005 Pete's. AC custom Hauling. |
Replies:
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 7:23am
| I was toying with doing that to a 426 to get it down to 410 cubes many years ago. My plan was to bore the existing sleeves slightly (leaving a step on the bottom inch), and lightly pressing in a 1/8" dry sleeve blank inside of the wet sleeve and then boring to the correct undersized bore to meet the cube requirement. Then, the pistons were going to be turned down in a lathe, less than 1/8 " off of the diameter, which is only less than 1/16" material removed. Not being cam ground didn't bother me, as they were going to be a loose fit compared to stock anyway. Might have had to deepen the ring grooves a little and then just find a set of rings, which wasn't going to be an issue. Reducing the 426 down to 4.125" on the bore made it 400 cubes, so I wouldn't have gone the full 1/8 reduction. Stock head and valves would have still been used. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 8:50am
| Current bore of an AC-516 is 4 7/16".......if you reduce bore to 4 3/8" the cubes become 502 CID. That's only 1/16" downsize in bore diameter. |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 4:59pm
| Your range of 900 - 1300 HP is a wide one. Maybe if you posted the pump and turbo limitations it would be helpful. None the less, getting to 500 cubes is no hill for a climber with a 426 block and to me would be one hell of a lot easier than fitting a 516 into the D 21 chassis, then have to re cube it. Also, I would hope a 426 of any cubic inch size would do more than a 5.9 Cummins will do. I realize the Cummins idea is spawned from sponsorship money, but to me seems like the idea which would yield the worst results. I assume the 400 series IH and Deere engines are in this class. They would eat up and poop out any 5.9 Cummins that was equipped with the same turbo and pump. |
Posted By: DarrylinWA
Date Posted: 23 Jun 2013 at 11:32pm
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I just talked to the head of the pulling program tonight. Here are the rules. We can go to 480 CI. (If it is 486, thats OK) The guy that has a JD is taking a 509 and doing the same as I am with the 516. Can run a P Pump. Can run water injection, but no ICE BOX. Open RPM. Allowed a 3.5 wheel on the turbo on the compressor side. Can not run a aluminum head or aftermarket head. Has to be a name brand,MFG. Can make my own header or exhaust manifold (YES). Tractor will pull in the 8500 lb class. Can run either a 23.1x34 tire, 20.8x38 or 24.5x32 rears. Radial or bias and any type of cut. No speed limit. The other guys in the class has a IH with a DT466 and a P pump about 900 HP. The JD will be in the 1100 HP range. The Ford 9600 tractor has a 472 CI and about the 1100 HP range. So I think in the 1100 HP range would be good. Something that will stand up over the test of time. I would think I should get something to run good in the 3500 to 400 RPM range. Will put a Crowler slipper clutch. Thanks in advanced Darryl Call me at 360 393 7760 cell. Love to talk. Lyndce WA. ------------- B 10 Custom. Serial # 1001 D21, First D21 built 69 #4498 and Last D 21 Built #4609. 1946 MM UTU. And 2000, 2005 Pete's. AC custom Hauling. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 24 Jun 2013 at 8:39am
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I'd save the $4000 on the core engine, use a 426. If you can only run to 480 cid then I really don't think that the 426 would be much or any disadvantage ran at 426 cid. Seat time and tuneing will do more than another 54 cid ever will.
Spend the money you're going to save on the core engine, decubeing it and buy a cheap 426. Decompress and cut valve reliefs cut in the pistons, buy a good turbo, great head work and harden the rods, and get on the track. You'll find plenty of places to blow cash and time by the time you get a fuel system, clutch, windmill on top and water injection. If you're still not tired of dumping cash and time in then buy a set of 24.5x32 Pullers. When you're done with that you can get on the track and find that you need a gear half way in between the ones you have, more cash and more time...... you get the picture.
I've got a friend with several military gen set 426 engines, I bet you can buy them in the $1500-$2000 range, there's lots of combine engines out there and lots of used parts, I can't say I'd spend much on a core engine and just run used pistons and sleves, make up a few spares. It's alwayse more work than a guy thinks and HP comes harder in real life than on the internet, but I don't think 1100 HP will be out of line with a slightly modified 426 short block with a 3.5" turbo.
I pull with Gary the original owner of your tractor. His new D-21 looks great, but like the rest of us it's still in tuneing stages. We keep getting rained out and just aren't getting many hooks ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: bradley6874
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2013 at 12:07pm
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Why is it every body screams no replacmen for displacment yet you both say no to de cubing a 516 if the pump specks are the same and turbo limits are the same . neither one said why one would be better just asking ------------- You can wash the dirt off the body but you can’t wash the farmer out of the heart and soul |
Posted By: Glockhead SWMI
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2013 at 12:36pm
| Looks like the reason why is money... |
Posted By: injpumpEd
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2013 at 9:04pm
I've always thought of the 516 as a big and bulky outdated, low speed engine compared to the smaller packaged 426. ------------- 210 "too hot to farm" puller, part of the "insane pumpkin posse". Owner of Guenther Heritage Diesel, specializing in fuel injection systems on heritage era tractors. stock rebuilds to all out pullers! |
Glockhead SWMI wrote:Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2013 at 9:10pm
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Well, in my mind there are a few reasons: Transplanting a foreign engine into a chassis it was not made for seems simple enough on the front end. The reality is any time you take on a job like this there are many "unforeseen things" that come into play. The obvious one is a flywheel, clutch, and back plate and making it all work with the starter on the engine. Second is how does the front plate fit between the frame rails. Now those two alone don't seem like that big of a deal and they aren't, but the time and money spent doing just those two things could be better spent on the engine that was made to fit in the first place. The list would be different for every cross breading, but things just don't happen as easy as they look to begin with. Next would be finding parts for the 516 if something failed or you need a spare. Much tougher than the 426 I would assume. Next, who say's the 516 is worth a damn for higher performance? I don't know what the heads are like, same goes for the rods, crank, etc. At least with the 426 there would be a more than a few people who could help in making it powerful and reliable. For example, try to find fast ratio rocker arms for a 516. Good luck! And yes, it all boils down to money. I would say with a fair amount of confidence that you would spend less on a 480 C.I. 426 than you would jacking around with 516 and end up going farther down the track. My two cents. |
Posted By: O.P.S. Heads
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2013 at 9:34pm
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Some more things to consider by doing a transplant: Hydraulic pump drive (if still being used). How will the D21 pump fit on to the 516 block? Water pump and how it lines up with the radiator. An electric pump and fan could be used I suppose, but again, $$ spent to make it work. Weight of the 516 bulldozer engine over the 426 block. My point here is that it would take longer than 15 minutes to make it fit. New curse words would need to be invented. |
Posted By: DarrylinWA
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2013 at 9:36pm
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Can you call me Steve at 360 393 7760 cell. Thanks Darryl ------------- B 10 Custom. Serial # 1001 D21, First D21 built 69 #4498 and Last D 21 Built #4609. 1946 MM UTU. And 2000, 2005 Pete's. AC custom Hauling. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2013 at 10:56pm
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What I'm scared of is changeing rules. I see it happen all the time. 466 cid max, then 540 at the meeting and then 505 but maybe it'll change. I've seen to many times someine build for a class that lasts a year or never has rules that get enforced. To many people have spent enough time and money on these type of classes building a different mouse trap that they could have built a higher class of tractor once. That's why I said earlier to run it as a 426. See how things pan out for the class and also see how they work out for you. It's an easy upgrade to go to 480 after you burn a few 426 pistons down playing with water and fuel. Whatever you think you want to or are going to spend, figure on 3x more before it's done and double that figure by the time it's perfected. Welcome to tractor pulling. Consider what happens when it pitches a rod or burns a cylinder down. Those 516 parts aren't going to be as easy to come by as 426 parts. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: KGood
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2013 at 7:22am
| I would think some of the 344 parts would interchange since it's the four cyl. version of the 516. Best thing to do is try to find that guy that has actually done it and still pulls with one. Heck look at the 6030 deere motor it was a big piece of crap but now they make decent pulling motors. |
Posted By: Hudsonator
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2013 at 10:14am
That's really the bottom line.
Rules changes cost us way more money and time than breakdowns ever did. ------------- There isn't much a WC can't do. WD's just do it better. |