thinking topfuel machining on 226
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Topic: thinking topfuel machining on 226
Posted By: mlpankey
Subject: thinking topfuel machining on 226
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 3:49pm
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Aluminum blocks if known are going to be used for top fuel get the mains machined and a replaceable steel insert goes in to hold upper main bearing. I was pondering the same thing but solely to move cranks centerline down away from cam to fit 7 inch stroke. Heres the question how much do you recon it can be moved before having major bellhousing issues with starter to flywheel ring cam gear to crank gear etc. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Replies:
Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 4:00pm
| I say go for it, build it , dyno it, put it in a tractor and pull it ! Here is a great chance to show everyone what you can do. Good Luck Mitch ! |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 4:04pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Gary in da UP wrote:Posted By: Mrgoodwrench
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 6:14pm
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if you can build that and pull it i don't think you could be called a keyboard commando again...sounds very interesting...i would think any distance would at the least mean slotting some holes for bell, but i guess you could make a relocated adapter plate? ------------- There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!! |
Posted By: AaronSEIA
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 6:47pm
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Curious, when you lower the crank, how do you keep the cam gear and timing the same? Interesting idea, but seems to me the bellhousing is the least of the problems. The trouble would all be at the front. Love this forum, no one is afraid to think outside the box. AaronSEIA
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Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 7:08pm
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It'd be easy enough to do. Use a small main crank or turn the mains down even smaller on a d17 crank to fit another berring insert for even less surface speed like others have to. Make a main berring assembly like WI50 has shown he made 15 years ago and place the liner in the main berring bores of the block. You're not the first one to think about it. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 8:21pm
Your mechanical disability never ceases to amuse us. As long as you're worried about moveing it so little that cam gear train isn't effected. It'd be easier to move the cam by offset boreing and sleveing the bores up in the block and turning the main cam diameters down as far as possiable. Or offset bore the cam bore and make a billet cam with large mains. Just think of the ramp geometry if starting with a clean slate. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: Mrgoodwrench
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 8:31pm
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for once pankey has a great post with good questions and ideas and with no negativity and he gets attacked! 5 replies in! ------------- There are 3 ways to do job GOOD, FAST, CHEAP. YOU MAY CHOOSE 2. If its FAST & CHEAP it won't be GOOD, if it's GOOD & CHEAP it won't be FAST, and if its GOOD & FAST it won't be CHEAP!!!! |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 8:40pm
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Who's attackin pank? I'm only telling him how to do it and the easiest way to do it. He was asking for advice how to do it and keep the stock timeing gears so I gave him a better idea. Moveing the cam keeps the ring gear and starter problem he had out of the equation. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 8:53pm
| Clutch flywheel problems will likely be easier than the others you create when moving the crank centerline? I guess you need to better define "major" issues. Moving the crank down more than a few thousands means new gears or new drive sytem such as chains cog belt etc so the answer there is it makes no differance, of your going to move it down .100 you might as well go 1.000. One problem you didnt mention is the relationship of the crank to the input shaft. Engine will have to be moved up or some creative means to move the input down? I saw this done with a full width plate or girdle on ( I think?) an Oliver? Some classes you cannot have such exterior mods? but you would know more that than I for sure. I would be a hard modification to hide if thats part of the equation. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 6:47am
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We looked at moving the cam but that means lifterbores move pushrods rockers etc . overhead cam is a diffeferent story playing with that idea as well . You guys are right I aint the only one working on it word is hayden is attempting the same . yes butch starter bell housing issues include input shaft. rob if you remember i posted when wi showed his bottom end 15 years ago that andy needed to do something like that for that 6.5 stroke crank laying under his bed . Wi used aluminum bars to girdle . This would be steel inserts to fit upper main bores to move crank down away from cam . its not as hard to hide as the cylinder head will be. A belt drive for the cam means a new cam . Cam will turn clockwise instead of counter clockwise like it does by paired gears. 500 cubes on 4 cylinders is a challenge fo the likes of me but over 400 cubes isnt and no one to my knowledge that has 400 plus inches on this site calls me a keyboard commando as well . ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 7:20am
| well looks like most have passed the man pankeys test as to what you have to do to makes this work YOUR THE MAN PANKEY |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 8:43am
| Well Pank, you have not realy shared any secrete or top level knowledge here. You asked if moving the crank will cause problems eslewhere and the obvious question is yes. It is also obvious that taking one gear out of a gear train or adding one reverses the direction of the driven gear, again all emementary. If you want to talk inteligently I am willing to participate. If your going to build it, just do it. If you just want to beat your chest and talk stupid I am done here. |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 8:51am
Pictures realy add to posts like this
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Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 9:14am
I don't see any test and no one has gotten an A+ yet sept Butch. The question was: "Heres the question how much do you recon it can be moved before having major bellhousing issues with starter to flywheel ring cam gear to crank gear etc." The answer is another question, why move it a few thousands of an in? Yes thousandths of an inch would be the limit before you have trouble with the cam and crank gears. There would be no advantage to it and it will only add problems to a build. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 9:19am
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The advantage is how much stroke a few extra thousandts will let you get by the heel of the cam . no replacement for displacement. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 9:21am
| envey will get you no where lol i would never dress in red checks lol orange maybe but not red lol |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 9:26am
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Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 9:36am
It's not right for you to take pics at the union Christmas party Butch. Shame on you! ------------- "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 10:17am
Just a somewhat shamful attempt at keeping ONE of these topcs factual and useful. Unbeknownst to some who post here there are highly modified engines operating all over this country, some even built by people who look at this site but get no joy from cyber bloating about their accomplishments,,, There are others who would actualy like to learn without wading through the BS. Off my stool
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Posted By: Moderator
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 11:44am
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I'm giddy with anticipation. ------------- ============================================================ The moderator at any given time may be the forum owner, or a trusted assistant. Your cooperation is appreciated. Thank You |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 11:49am
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So true butch so many g226 engines stretched to 450 inches out there that they are to hard to count . but not one is of them runs in your gang of posters thats why your gangs so envious as burchard posted. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Breeze
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 11:51am
| mg = mitch's gal ????? |
Posted By: AaronSEIA
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 2:45pm
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How much stroke could be gained by moving the crank south a few thousandths? If you can gain enough to make it work, why can't you remove that much from the outside of the rod or the block to make it work? I don't know what the clearances are now for the cubes they run. Just the ramblings of a non puller trying to stay on point. AaronSEIA
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Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 2:57pm
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I have seen engines set up and run where there would be at least a half inch interference between the cam and the rod cap. They just notch the cam to clear the special built rod. Lighten up the valve springs and run for 3 or 4 years without many problems. These aren't top fuel make believe engines. They are stock appearing, stock rpm engines that develop 150 hp on the dyno. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: D-17_Dave
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 3:32pm
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Why all the interest in adding stroke. Wasn't it just a few months back that Panky had this raging argument that he wanted RPM's not length of stoke..... ------------- Yea, I can fix that..... |
Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 3:38pm
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Mitch your OHC idea would make it easier to eliminate cam clearance, conflict. And Think of the kinda flow you could get..... Might as well make it a crossflow semi-hemi , eh?
Post photos, Lots of 'em , we like photos. Can't wait to see the build video on u tube.
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Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 11:54am
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Now this thread can't actually be serious. If someone has to consult their business partners on how far to move the crank and not run into problems with timeing gear backlash then has to come on a forum asking for advice..... possiably new business partners ( possiably immaginary friends) would be a wise move.
An even better idea it to first master haveing some reliability in an engine package.
Rod is actually correct in moveing the cam.
I've spent my fair share of time measureing up these blocks and figureing out where to put what. I've made billet cams for some, roller lifter setup for one. There is about .300 that the lifter can travel up in it's bore before hitting the lifter rail in the block when it's at max lift sitting on a stock cam, and of course if a cam was custom ground that point would be slightly lower, or even closer to the cams centerline as the additional lift comes from the smaller base of the cam.
There's plenty of material in that lifter rail to machine it so the lifters could rise higher, but because of the cam placement already, the cam can be moved about 1/4" up without working to hard. Makeing plugs that fill the lifter bores and offset boreing the new cam bore higher.
It wouldn't take all that much to do, a belt drive system and a little block line boreing, a little crank and cam work to fit pulleys and it's done. The lifter rail is verry thick and could be relieved some for the lifter bases in these engines and strong enough to support a cam turning either direction. Custom pushrods are cheap.
I have billet rods made at a local machine shop, I spent some time figureing the cap angle and the bolt placement, rod profile etc. tried a sample and tweeked them pretty good for clearance. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 4:57pm
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rod kinda right and kinda wrong . boring the cam bores and using a larger cam journal doesnt move the centerline. one would have to reduce cam journal size and make some eccentric bushings or bearings to move centerline. a billet cam shaft could have the base circle smaller than the hollow factory cams . wi we have aoy of cams with .330 lift on cam that hasnt had any lifter rail work so that .300 number is off a tad. we know how much you can line bore one before you have to cut the gear down. turning the cam the opposite way wqith a belt drive takes a totally redesigned cam also. buisness is good on the strokers . wi must have figured out a away to feed cfm to one theres a post by him thats says theres no waya cylinder head could possibly feed a 6,5 stroke and thats why he built small inch motors. Its not hypocrisy its just a different combination. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 5:16pm
If the idea is to move the cam UP, why would you bore the bearing diameters on centerline with the original? If the idea is to move the cam up 1/4 inch, you pick up the original diameter and move .250 up before you bore it Oversize. You lack of knowledge about working on these things just keeps shining ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 5:42pm
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you're right C tucker his lack keeps showing, the commando has no clue what I explaned above.
If any of you have an engine apart, or the oil pan off of one, take and turn the cam untill the lifter is pushed up as high as it can be. Now take and push the lifter higher in it's lifter bore, it will go UP another .250-.300 easy, moveing away from the cam. There is room to move a cam with .330 lift up higher in the block, or there is room to run a .600 or so lift cam in it's original location.
Milling the lifter rail a bit to gain some clearance is a pretty easy task.
So a guy could run a billet cam, moved up in the block by .250-.300 pretty easy by offset boreing the cam bore in the block, I would make plugs and fill the bores to start with, shoot a new line up whatever distance is desired. The main berring diameter on a stock cam is about as large as one would want to run as far as clearance getting past the sleves depending on what bore and where the sleves were positioned. I've moved them over at times and relieved the sides a bit to gain clearance in order to be able to install the cam, but that's for some pretty big bores. So rather than bore much oversize, I would go a bit smaller if anything.
I have one togather at 6.5" stroke with 2.00" crank pins and it's tight on the cam, but I still have quite a bit of material on the rod that could get cut away, 7" would fit with nothing more than billet rods designed right and some clearance work on the cam which would get thin, or a custom billet cam made. At the RPM that it would operate at there wouldn't be much valve train load at all, and with just the original lifters on a billet cam with large lobes it would be verry gentle.
Now here's the really easy thing to do.
A rod with a 27.5 degree cap angle clears the cam at 6.5" stroke, billet connecting rod, 2.00" crankpin when put with the cap twards the cam. Put the rod in backwards so the cap is AWAY from the cam and it clears the cam by about .250" or so and verry verry little additional clearance work is needed to the cam though a little more is required on the oil pan rails.......
The real story to fit a 7" stroke in the engine is that all you have to do is to put the rods in with the caps away from the cam rather than twards the cam. It works, I know people who have done it............
------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 6:41pm
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whos running a seven inch stroke ? wi your admitting having issues with 6.5 stroke . its all easy from the computer desk and parts laying around on tables for pictures. wi and c you got to center up on something to bore and the middle cam bore solid would be tough without making tooling. be alot easier just to make a cam box to go overhead cam . at some point strokes outside oil pan rail also with main centerline left in place from oem . ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Unstylish
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 7:25pm
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Pank, ive got a 6.5 crank sitting under my bed (Im impressed that you remembered where i had it in a previous post) I dont know why you are so concerned about moving crank around..what rod/journal are you going to use? You should buy that head from me so you can run some more rod, cause youre gonna need it. ------------- The problem with reading MLPANKEYS posts, is that they dont make boots that tall. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 7:28pm
There's no problems with a 6 1/2 stroke. These pictures are of a 6 1/2 inch stroke, 2.000" crankpin. Billet rod with a 27.5 degree cap angle. The rod clears the crank by about a quarter inch....... going to 7" stroke would only require slight cam clearance. There's actually a lot of material on the cam that can be removed yet which would help even more. Though with a 7" I would change the cap angle some.
  It's easy, if you have practical experience you would know these things. It's not top fuel machineing.....it's only common sense. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: Unstylish
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 7:32pm
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wow, wi, even adding pics for everyones viewing pleasure. Thats a nice looking setup you have there..Pank, why dont you just buy a rotating assembly from Marty cause hes got it figured out. It would save alot of hassle.
------------- The problem with reading MLPANKEYS posts, is that they dont make boots that tall. |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 7:44pm
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Wi, I got my rods today and they look awesome. I think your sig line says it all, and it's shown again here. Pank aka the commando should try and first build a reliable engine. Or any engine at all. Would you please list your business physical adress, phone number and staff. It would be nice to know which places to stay away from for the good of the sport. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 7:59pm
+1
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Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 8:55pm
Can't hardly wait to hear the comments about the BAD weld job and all the gassholes  ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 9:00pm
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no way thats a 6 1/2 inch stroke and no notches in oil pan rail and you right its full of purosity. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 9:02pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 9:27pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 9:55pm
heres the oil pan rail on a block that was clearanced for a true stroke of 6 inches with a rod jouranl of 1.800 rods were after market billet about as narrow as you ca get .
 ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 10:15pm
since i know i am dealing with guys who havent ever remove a oil pan from one . heres a picture of a stock stroke and bore bootom end. notice the rail clearance and cam .
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2012 at 2:34am
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Sure pankey. Those notches are so wide they are for Buda rods, pretty small bores also. Buda and billet are spelled different. Your measureing skills are off also as a Buds uses a 1.9985 crankpin. 1.8 is to weak. Didn't you break a few cranks with 1.75 rod journals? As wi said he did some work figureing out cap angle and rod profile We have seen your welding skills. A toddler could do better. Please let us know the shop physical adress, phone numbers and business partners. We kneed to know who to avoid. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: Unstylish
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2012 at 2:37am
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pank, quit digging a hole. Its a 6.5" crank , Ive seen it with my own eyes. There is plenty of room. There is no pororsity, and you couldnt see it in that pic IF there was any. Its just another case of you dont know your A$$ from a hole in the ground. You cant even answer my questions because all you are doing is fishing. You will never build something, let alone something reliable. Youve proven yourself to be nuttier than squirrel chit time and time again. Its flat embarassing.. ------------- The problem with reading MLPANKEYS posts, is that they dont make boots that tall. |
Posted By: Unstylish
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2012 at 2:42am
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Oh, and yes, my crank is right where I left it. See, I dont have to worry about selling it or dreaming. I already have a running engine that has made more dyno runs than all your motors put together, let alone hooks. ------------- The problem with reading MLPANKEYS posts, is that they dont make boots that tall. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2012 at 7:56am
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Dream on. Nope notches were for 1.800 aftermarket billet rods.not small borez eithed. They were 4.790 in that picture before getting inlarged again. No holes here ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Unstylish
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2012 at 9:56am
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You asked the question,wi50 posted pics, I confirmed info. Wi50 and I BOTH have more knowledge on this subject. Annnnnd newsflash, you cant seem to understand it. Well, I just cant help if you are stupid. ------------- The problem with reading MLPANKEYS posts, is that they dont make boots that tall. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2012 at 11:00am
 WHY would someone need a cast iron forging facility?( I'm really surprised you got all 3 of these spelled right) Go back and read the words Marty wrote, not what you thought he wrote, or what you think he should have wrote, but the words he actually wrote. So a guy could run a billet cam, moved up in the block by .250-.300 pretty easy by offset boring the cam bore in the block, I would make plugs and fill the bores to start with, shoot a new line up whatever distance is desired. Now pank, if you had any knowledge of machining or repair work, you would have NO reason to think you need cast iron to do this  ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2012 at 11:12am
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I have made steel sleeves for a V16 natural gas pumping monster engine that were cut to fit the bottom third of the block cam bore after it was bored Oversize to make it round. Then we cut about .100 off the bottom of the caps, installed the sleeve, bolted up the caps and the block was lined bored to original size and location. The guys doing the line bore work travel the WORLD doing this kind of work and they don't need a cast iron forging facility to fix the engine, just a good machinist to make the parts like they want.
------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2012 at 12:15pm
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Yep thats the wa you line bore mains is to grind the caps smaller then fasten them and bore back to original size. You saying add a eccentric bushing wich is the way i am saying. But i am turning cam journal in lathe to the eccenttric bushing bore. It just to me seams to be lesser work and harder work isnt always smarter work.burchard answered the question early on so keep expanding on it so i become less impressed with everyones mechanical appitude. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2012 at 2:54pm
You are shooting yourself in the foot spankey. Now READ this post for what it says.
You didn't want to move the cam earlier in this thread, now you want to do it..... you asked originally how far you could move the crank without timeing gear issues and later say you know exactly how far your "shop" knows how far it can be moved. Talkning in circles.
At least there's a chance you'll learn something only to be forgotten before being used I suppose.
Turning the cam main journals down to fit your bushings is not going to get you far at all. If you think before posting and can read a caliper, have a straight edge you'd see that. Take your straight edge and lay it on the cam main journals and measure how far it is to the top of a lobe...... tell us how far it is and just how far you could turn the mains down.........If a guy is going to do it, do it once and do it right.
What you would do by turning the cam down, is that you would have to grind smaller lobes, which in turn is what you DON'T want to do. Anyone with any camshaft knowledge, even the most basic would want the largest lobe possiable to start working with. The larger the better, the limeting factor being the cam main journal diameter.
The crank in the pictures is 6.5" stroke. It's in a block for mock up purposes only for alterations to connecting rod design. I tryed some sample rods of different cap angles and found what works best to clear. Cap angle and rod profile are verry important..... or else you end up with clearance issues an inch to soon like in your pictures. At 6" stroke with a set of rods with a 27.5 degree cap angle there is almost NO clearance work to do. Straight cap rods do not clear well (your pictures show that).
Quit the commando crap and get your hands dirty if you think you know how. Falling down or dragging your knuckles on the shop floor does not count.
------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2012 at 3:26pm
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if i was going to do the effort to move the cam i would move it to over head . do you ever get past mock ups . crank rod mock ups flywheel clutch mockups. alot of effort and time in mock ups no wonder you make a pull as often as the lobness monster appears. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2012 at 5:15pm
Look, I quoted Mitch again When have you pulled? People ask for pictures and you say they are all over the web. The only thing I could find about you pulling is this:hello juder i pull a wd in southeast tennessee. would like to talk to you maybe see if i could step my tractor up . right now shes 307 cubes but always looking for more snott especially this year my best finish for 2005 was 2cnd. And this:
 ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2012 at 5:48pm
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yeap we pulled 307 inches for 5 years and it ran out of snott needed new sleeves and valve seats. this is why we went bigger and found ways to make more snott . Alll those tractors are respectively built tractors . Thankyou for showing that I was pulling nin 2005 and have been pulling ever since that .at least 7 years experience and as i said we had 5 years before that with that engine . The wc was 380 inches in 06 chads A was huge and won several king of the hill 10,000 lb pulls. the h had a marlatt engine . alot of points pullers would be happy with consistant 4 place finishes but not me. one way to know if you got everything you need is to pull regularly and see where you finish in the standings it can be verry good motivation . It can also show that all the money you just spent was spent in all the wrong places especially if your builder is selling small cubic inches in classes where 400 to 600 plus inches are. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2012 at 9:04pm
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This thread is epic. Asking Juder for help is the best idea pank has had. Marty had to explain how to get a 7" stroke to clear. Did you get a ribbon for participation? You say you have been pulling ever since but yet can not post where or any results. At least you're consistant at around 90 feet behind the leader. It's as fishey as your machine shop of which you avoide giveing us a phone number and physical adress. It's clear that an overhead cam is over your head. Can we see some pictures of the billet rods you claim go on that 1.8" journal? With only a 6" stroke and that small of a journal no clearance work would be needed unless the rod was a total hack job or poor design. Why use such a bulkey rod? Unless of course you are lying to us ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 6:17am
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 8:00am
| mitch the want a bes will allways try to drag you down keep doing what your doing |
Posted By: Ken(MI)
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 8:40am
| I just have to say that I just heard the best one yet with the "cast iron forging facility" comment since "triple hardening steel" on this forum. I have been around the forging industry a little, and have NEVER heard of forged cast iron, or a poured forging. WOW, someone actually trying to learn something on here could become dangerous. I admire the inginuity shown here, but the banter gets a little old and pretty outlandish sometimes. |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 9:13am
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Hey Ken! Glad to see you posting again. Ever been around a Parrot? No more needs said
Stick around and you will be further "enlightened" Might even learn from the master how to build and engine or do some simple machine work then you can use all those machine tools at your shop?? |
Posted By: Unstylish
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 9:16am
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Poor pank...anything you dont understand, you throw under the bus. Whats so funny is that motor you posted pics or came from *newsflash* someone else. You bought it. You still arent capable of building your own.
------------- The problem with reading MLPANKEYS posts, is that they dont make boots that tall. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 9:16am
OK, now you come on a public forum and accuse me of doing bad business practices to someone. I posted pictures of a crankshaft, I did not give any information on it........ you are a true POS!
Your lack of knowledge keeps showing. When welding a crank, the welds out over the original forgeing keep building up, of course on the ends they get ground down some during clean up in the welding process. Now it's nice to grind a little less untill the final balanceing is done. It gives the builder something to grind on to balance a crank.
Where the radius and crankpin are it is critical to have good clean welds. So you're lucky I took time to take some pictures, but here's another one of the crankpin...... It's dang nice work. When finish balanced and ground it will look like a true work of art. A good builder will do things in stages in order to keep the most amount of strength in a build. The parts need to get mocked up, taken apart, fit and then finished.
This crank was delivered to me to figure out connectiong rods for I requested it as I'm working on billet rods and want to test fit things for best clearance for another project. I will not say where it came from, or who's it is. It is verry nice work though. Your attempt to slander me pankey is useless.........
Now the critical areas here look great. (oops sorry pankey there's dust on the oil on the main)
 I can't help it that someone in Miss bought a bad crank from someone else. The man in question is on these forums under the name of ( insert later)
He calls me and claims he should have never listened to that idiot (insert later) he got a bunch of bad advice, bad work and a wrecked his engine.
I'd hope a moderator takes care of our commando comeing on public forum makeing false accusations of me doing bad business on a project I had absolutly NOTHING to do with untill a guy calls me later complaning about bad service he got from....... ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 12:03pm
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He didnt get the crank from me either it came from up your way and the welds look the same if your not doing it you should find someone else to do the cranks . Cause a 6.5 crank is running only on majority of weld and if its full of purosity then its not going to last . ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Unstylish
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 1:00pm
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Didn't your close friend Kent dakin buy a big crank a while ago? ------------- The problem with reading MLPANKEYS posts, is that they dont make boots that tall. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 1:55pm
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2008 you remember seeing it on yt it was horrible looking .purosity all over it some funky attempt to counterweight it . terrible from the get go. Wished i could find that picture of it looks like it came from wisconsin to me. Both were customised to fit in a dumpster. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mgburchard
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 4:11pm
| wi50 i dont think your weld would pass a look test let alone a die penetrate or xray test |
Posted By: Bob C IL
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 4:32pm
| Skimmin across this post has more drama than the houswifes of atlanta.... |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 5:33pm
November 12 2008 on YTmag pulling forum there's a thread about a big crank for sale.
"$ still have stroker stuff for allis 226"
If I were good enough with the computer to post the link for you I would. It's pretty funny reading though. Maybe Ctucker or Butch is handy with their computer???
Ken called me several times in the past (fall of 2011) looking for some parts and advice. Someone on the internet had given him a bunch of bad advice and he had bought a bad crankshaft..........
Interesting what you find on other forums and who had what for sale. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 7:51pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Unstylish
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 8:02pm
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You're busted, Mitch! I should give kent a call... ------------- The problem with reading MLPANKEYS posts, is that they dont make boots that tall. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 8:09pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: D-17_Dave
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 8:16pm
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And non of this has anything to do with answering the orriginal post of Panky wanting to offset the crankshaft. Once you get all that worked out Panky you can waste another 6 months forging an offset transmision input shaft.
Still ain't answered my question about flip flopping on the stroke issue.......
Somebody give this whinning child a diaper change and a bottle, it's way past his bedtime and he's trying to interupt an adult conversation. ------------- Yea, I can fix that..... |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 8:24pm
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That is a flat out lie pankey. I never sold Ken (or Kent) anything. He called me because he was tired of your bad advice. He took your advice and wrecked his engine. Absolutely every time I've sold parts to ANYONE weather from forums or not they have the option to return if they don't like it for some reason. Heck I don't even collect money untill people get their things...... I ship them out with an invoice in the box and our good honest members alwayse send a check. It's not a business it's a hobby. In searching the archives and talking to friends it turns out pankey hires everything done. Buys competitive engines and makes them non competitive. Then sells the junk left over. It's really odd that the timeing of his things for sale corespond with the timeing of someone getting bad parts. What's even more odd is that I wasn't on any forums then...... ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 8:25pm
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dave i am the one who runs stroke and makes the bottom end run the rpm the induction makes it run so you got confussed on that . Its the wi guys who believe they cant get stroke to turn rpms .Your right though obviously since he has purchased 500 inches for his puller he has figured out stroke will turn rpm cause now he has a purosity filled crank he ckaims is 6.5 inches pictured in a mockup.sorry you got confussed on whos who. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Carl(NWWI)
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 8:31pm
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http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=pulling&th=107367" rel="nofollow - http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=pulling&th=107367 And if I'm correct, pank still thinks that you weld your cranks, but correct me if I'm wrong, you dont, some one else does, atleast that what I got outta your post, but him and his one friend cant seem to understand that? Oh and he also failed to understand the part where you didnt sell this feller a crank, but he didnt pay attention that day in kindergarden and doesnt know how to read...cuz from what I've read, he purchased the crank from someone else, not Wi. Pank, i would still like to know how you can put up such an arguement, but yet you have nothing to show for it, no running tractor, no videos, that any of us have seen anyway. We've all seen Wi50's tractor, seen videos, heck, I've even seen it pull in person, but why is there nothing of yours?? Really seems like you should take less time creating high school drama on here, and more time building your tractor. |
Posted By: D-17_Dave
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 8:35pm
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LOL, that's about the line of babling I exspected. Not one answer to the question I posed. Just rambling on about what you want to talk about.
Now I'll admit I'm no expert on these types of heavy engine mods, but I can read BS as good as any. The way you put together your replies it looks like you need to lay off the moonshine. Your double talk is beginning to confuse yourself. Maybe that's what you've been doing in the shopis running a thump keg pulling engine. That I can see you wanting to keep a secret. ------------- Yea, I can fix that..... |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 8:38pm
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I run stroke for the cubic inches it gives does that answere your question ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 8:41pm
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But at least when he's on the computer Carl he's not wrecking parts. Us real pullers need to scrounge all the good parts we can. Yeah' I just get cranks done in town. The one in the pic came from out of state from a guy Gary Baker has used.........and does a lot of crank work for pro-stocks. I've got a local guy by Luck makeing the nicest billet rods. Sometime when pankey cools down or gets banned I'll post some information on them. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 8:44pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Carl(NWWI)
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 8:50pm
Lol. Guess I'm catching on pretty quick, but in the insane assylum it sometimes takes ppl a while to comprehend what they read, which we have pretty good proof of. True though, whens he's on here he's not hurting innoscent bystanders with rod caps, cam lobes, and crank journals when she comes flying apart. Wi doesnt usually have time for all this nonsense too from what i noticed, ppl i know have known him since tech school, he's only gotten smarter since then, has a very successful farming operation, and seems to be building high powered pullers that do very well. pank, you still ignored my response. why waste your time on here if theres no proof??????
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Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 9:16pm
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andy knows what i am talking about he also down deep knows his heckling stopped when he started doing buisness with the hecklers. and never hurt anyone never had any flying parts either. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 10:17pm
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So let's get this straight. Pank has a question on how to get a 7" stroke in the 226 engine and I show and tell how to do make 6.5" fit and show that there's clearance for 7" like he wanted to do by running the rod a certain way with a verry specific cap angle. He crys and posts lies an tries to slander about me. Makes sense to me. Now that he has the necessary information he could order the parts and do it for himself. He could build a puller and show us...... that was his original intentions right? We'll never see it. As for me, I'll see some of you in Gordyville and hopefully Murfreesboro where real people actually pull. Or at least have a few drinks and socialize laughing at people like pank. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: Carl(NWWI)
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 10:53pm
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Well all we can do is try to help, and whatever happens happens, best thing to do is try to ignore it, even though its hard. Maybe ill see ya down there. Im going as well |
Posted By: D-17_Dave
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2012 at 11:12pm
------------- Yea, I can fix that..... |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 6:31am
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again I dont know what your talking about .I have always run stroke and always been a activist for stroke . With statements like no replacement for displacement . etc. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Unstylish
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 11:24am
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Pank, Wi has had you at every turn. You were the guru until he showed up out of nowhere. Now you are just stuck acting like the kid who lost a pecker measuring contest. I changed my s/n a few years back on YT because I got sick of people cluttering up my *serious* posts, ie, when my friends wife passed away. NOT BECAUSE of any heckling. I fail to see where you have a grudge against Marty. I met him, he helped me out alot, machines some awsome stuff for me , and has been the BEST person I have ever met to bounce ideas off of. Plus my tractor makes about 30% MORE POWER than previously. Thats dyno proven, too. You have trashed everything he has ever done or said. The entire time, *gasp* you blew up your motor, sold a few $hit cranks, and tried to pass off Tarbills motor as your own work. Now, you have been reduced to outright lying about others actions, and running your mouth about things you obviously have no idea about. The guys who took your advice would like to shoot you, the guy who bought one of your cranks called me up one night a few years ago madder than hell. Im not sure how much you are paying this mgburchard to stick up for you, but its not enough. You have nothing left... ------------- The problem with reading MLPANKEYS posts, is that they dont make boots that tall. |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 1:25pm
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I hate the drama, but I do not like someone trying to bash me. Expecially when pankey claims that I sold a bad crankshaft (an outright lie) to someone who I only talked to and never had any monetary dealings with.
I was looking around YT when I had a few minutes trying to find pictures of the bad crank. They been posted there, I stumbled across this.
Does this crank look like a hack job or what?
 This pic is from the YTmag pulling forum. Posted by none other than our commando himself allong with some really cobbled up other junk parts. Some thread about a high school physics and the machinist.....pankey trying to pass this thing as his allong with some hack job of balanceing a front pulley.
I suppose we'll get some lame excuses and probably some trick photography excuses (I left it nice and big didn't I) . If I were handy with the puter I'd post a link. But unfortunatly I'm barely able to copy it and paste it on my phone.
On to more spankey drama as the saga continues. But I'd hope that none of you fellas think that I'd do any shady dealings. I've got a good business to run, and I like haveing a good reputation with people. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 3:00pm
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Nope i never used that crank ever because it was a hack job. It didnt have any visible purpsity though unlike yours your using from whoever do. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 5:33pm
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Busted. Bless the poor sucker who bought it. I have requested several times the name, phone number and physical adress of your shop. It's confuseing as to why you say the stroker business is good but yet claim to have sold only 2 cranks and have old friends now unhappy with you. Something smells fowl in dixie. ------------- for the money there is nothing better than provoking idiots and posers |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 7:28pm
Must be one of those "cast forgings" he earlier mentioned that are otherwise unknown in the engine world,, or any other. Next time you might try rod other than 6013?
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Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 7:50pm
Butch, the only other rod I have here besides 6013 is 6011. I use nothing else with my Ole Forney Buzz box. I must admit, I am not a crankshaft stroker and have never played one on a tractor forum.  ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Ken(MI)
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 8:09pm
You mean to tell me that those numbers on welding rod make a difference Butch? I was always told to use stainless steel when in doubt, because the nickel content makes it very forgiving, especially when welding cast iron forgings, double annealed and triple spherodized, with a high temperature austenizing draw. It's the only thing I would ever consider welding a crank or connecting rods with and only then when followed by a post- heat with two, one hundred watt light bulbs and wrapped in my kid's old security blankey for at least two hours per inch, or until the kid screams for the blankey. 
|
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 8:15pm
| Charlie it might work out OK if your working on a crank like the rest of the world uses instead of a custom "cast forging" If it works you can tell everybody you own a Gleason and go into business! Know anyone who can run a lathe and mill to knock off the high spots? If not just use an axe like the one in the pic. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 8:19pm
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the crank in the pictures fault was The submerge wire crank welder was a one wire machine and the hard journal wire in the radius. when journal wire is used in the radius to arm or throw however you want to say it doesnt allow the crank to flex . The cranks I choose to use are done on a gleason two wire machine so the crank is not rigid and can flex without stress cracking. Now most cranks break in the radius and most know this so they get enthusiastic about a large radius and do not pay attention to how well the radius is tied into the arm throw.. Purosity or as wi calls it gas holes there is a weak weld and now matter how large the radius is the crank is only as strong as that weakest penetration weld. Ps the crank on top of the trash can was a ohio natpa champions crank and it has no visible purosity in it no visible stress cracking just visible age from running so many years. Its really amasing that people cant see obvious bad craftmenship welds like purosity without it being pointed out . I would bet money wis crank wouldnt ring through from the purosity like a good forged crank should. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Ken(MI)
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 8:30pm
| I would hope that there is some kind of heat treating done to these after welding to eliminate fusion line brittleness, in any case, hardness and grain structure should be controlled by heat treating, not by welding. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 8:32pm
The journal is the part the rod hooks to. The Cheek is the side of the throw. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 8:35pm
Naw rods is rods for those kinds of cranks. An old master told me the only time it makes any difference is when your going to do something with the crank besides take pictures of it |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 8:37pm
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yeap journal is where rod goes . ken they get pressed closed to straight ground straight and polished most the time no additional heat treating some get chromed on occasion .Wi said he has to do the polishing in a above post to make it a work of art . I say you cant polish a fart. butch wi doesnt need to worry with the purosity then he cant seam to make it to completion for starting another mock up. its easier to start more projects than it is to complete one. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 9:05pm
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Ken, It's possible mitch missed the day they talked about stress relieving a welded part. So they use a hard surface rod on a crankshaft to build it up? Then when it comes out junk, sell it to some unsuspecting wanna be puller? Chrome comes in real handy when you grind something undersize and don't want to scrap it I have turned welded cranks(for punch press etc) and the welding rod was always a close match to the original material. Preheat and post heat processes were always used. The only crank I ever put back in a press that failed was one we sent out to Detroit to be welded and it lasted for almost 6 years(running 3 shifts at least 5 days a week) in a 13,000 ton forge press. No pank, they are not forging presses, the are using a press to hammer out a forging and it's not made from cast iron ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2012 at 9:15pm
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I'm certain pank can see the flaws in the forgeing press. Hey there's even more if it's a union shop as it wasn't someone's job. That pic I copied of pank's crank was taken from a thread where a few guys are giveing him static about his blown up engine. It's posted with an awesome display of cast iton welding. He's lyin there saying it's his or here saying it isn't. Tough keepin them straight. For your entertainment I'll try and get that pic over here later on. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |