Farm Equipment - honing and ringing ???

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honing and ringing ???

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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4724
Printed Date: 15 Jan 2025 at 11:04pm
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Topic: honing and ringing ???

Posted By: JM
Subject: honing and ringing ???
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2009 at 9:22pm

My wc cylinders have a little bit of ring ridge in them, I am guessing .005 or less. My question is, can I hone these out till they are straight and put new rings in and knurl the pistons to help take up the extra clearance? If the ring gap is to much could I get some automotive .010 rings and hand file them to fit? If I dont go this way, where is a good source for piston,sleeve kits? I see them on Ebay for $350,I am guessing they are oversees made. Has anybody tried them? Thanks for any info,JM

Replies:

Posted By: Jack(Ky)
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2009 at 9:36pm

I ran my ol D14 for 25 years and you could rattle the pistons back and forth. It never smoked or used much oil. Once I finally put in new sleeves and pistons it had a lot more power. If it is just a show tractor that don't get a lot of hard work it be should fine.JP

Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2009 at 11:37pm

If the ridge is enough that you can feel it with your finger nail the chances of new ring hitting it is enough to dammage ring or oiston ring land.Use a ridge reamer to remove and hone to a cross hatch with slow stone speed.

.010 over rings may work but measure bore and size rings individual for each cylinder.

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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

Posted By: Dave H
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 7:32am

Jim

Where I live you can get the ridge reamer to use from autozne or ORileys for no charge. You just have to put a deposit on it and then they return your deposit when you return the tool.

Coke

On the 10 over. Do you need 10 over in the bore before using them. I am wondering if the rings are .010 bigger than stndard if measured from the outside to the inside of the ring as it fits in the piston groove. I know about setting the gap but am wondering if a 10 over in too tight of a bore could bind with the bottom of the piston ring groove even if the gap is set correctly.

Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 7:42am

a bore that is .010 oversize has a circumference of 3.14 times that much or .031 longer. If you bore is .010 oversize, your ring gap would be the original .008 plus .031 or .039 , thats too big, thats why you get .010 over rings and file the end to get back to .008 - .012 ring gap. That helps to guarantee no blow by. When you hone the bore you need to do more at the bottom of the bore to get it larger like the top near the ridge. If not, the new big rings will bind at the bottom. Check bore, then fit rings top and bottom to guarantee the gap. I have done what you said and had .016 ring gap at the top and .007 and the bottom and had success with the overhauls. Pistons can be .010-.012 loose in the bore and still be o.k. , even tho that is wide out of spec. Runs good, no smoke, no piston slap, just might be a horse power or two short. Not bad on a mower tractor.

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Like them all, but love the "B"s.

Posted By: Dave H
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 11:12am

thanks steve, I think I got it now.

Posted By: Don Smith
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 11:34am

JM If you are looking for an engine kit, Call Dan Doc Smith at 309 246 2900. He has kits very resonable priced. He also is on our favorite site HTHS Don in Indiana

Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 11:51am

Actually the oversized rings were made to use with oversized pistons in engines that did not have wet sleeves. A new piston has .002 clearance in the smaller piston sizes. If you are building a high performance engine you would want the piston to not slide down the inside of the bore with a 1/2" wide .003 feeler gage. At one time you could buy automotive pistons that were oversized by .003 for Chevys and .0025 for for Fords. The oversized pistons jumped to .010 - .020 - .030 -and .040. The cylinders needed to be bored and honed to size for the larger pistons.

A word of caution to those trying to hone off a ridge rather than using a ridge reamer. A flat stone hone will ride on the ridge and down it the cylinder and wash out the cylinder as it removes the ridge which just changes problems from a ridge to a large area down in the cylinder where the rings work. A dingle berry hone will do the same.

To use a .010 oversized ring you would not want any area of the cylinder wall more than .010 larger than standard. If taper exists the .010 rings would want to be would want to be filed to the proper gap at the smallest spot down in the cylinder wall. To check the gap I press the ring down with a bare piston.

I wanted to have some more pictures than what is at my picture site now but with my problems it will most likely next week some time before I will be able to take them.

Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 1:04pm

who ever thinks that oversized rings were made to compensate for worn sleeve bores is WRONG in there thinking. file fit rings come oversize so you can file to the ring gap to the required gaps to keep them from butting and yet not have excessive gap causing a loss in comp.blow by performance. Quit doing stuff cheap and do it right or dont do it at all!!!!!!

Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 2:14pm

Which only is neccesary if the sleeve has been worn to where a standard ring has to much gap between the ends.

mlplanky what we end up here is two different discusions. I think there is two rights in this hobby. One is the proper way to rebuild a high performance engine that has a high cost of parts as well as tools that would never be needed again. Higher costs than a lot of hobby rebuilders can afford. The other is an affordable way that the hobby rebuilder can get a well running low usage tractor without buying a lot of expensive parts and tools.

I personally would rather see more tractors running well even if not up to every spec as the newbe learns more about how the old engines work rather than get discouraged thinking they are totally in deeper than the pocket book can stand. That can be done and has with quite a few on this board. When I read the pride expressed when a fellow starts the engine on his first rebuild, it is priceless. Was it all done to the pros standards? Probly not but why care if it is running well. That pride helps others to try their hand. That in turn expands the hobby so it is still a live when I or us old duffers bite the dust.

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Posted By: JM
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 2:25pm

Amen Dick, I like to come up with creative ideas for building a engine that will make it perform well with out throwing gobs of money at it that I dont have. Anybody with money can just go buy new go fast parts, it is quite different to build with little money and still get performance. Burt Munroe built the worlds fastes Indian Motorcycle 40 years ago out of well pipe and hand made pistons and rods. His record at Bonneville has yet to be beat. That is what I like.

Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 2:35pm

theys a big difference in hand made and cobbled. craftsmen jackleg

Posted By: JM
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 2:50pm

I agree, big difference between cobbhousing and good craftsmanship, some ideas work, some dont.

Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 2:51pm

You will nver hone them straight and square, but hone them with a dingleberry type hone and because you will still have a tapered cylinder, use standard rings , the end gap of standard rings is the least of your worries in bores that aren't true. If you can, find someone to knurl your pistons for a better fit and that will mean you hand fitting to each cylinder It will by no means be a 100% overhaul but it may tide you over till your budget for this type of project matches what pankey is willing to fork out. It's your tractor and your money, not his. Gary

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I started out years ago with nothing.... after this divorce , I'll be getting most of it back.........

Posted By: Jacob (WI,ND)
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 3:08pm

This is a good post. I can see both sides of this discusson.

For these old tractors, which usually don't see much hard use, the "good enough" approach is often ok, even if not up to high performance specs.

I feel that just knowing what is right and "good enough" is half the battle. I'm still learning when it comes to this as well, for the record. I currently have a junk spare power unit engine that I got with another tractor, and am learning more about engine building with it. The plan with it is to do the low cost approach, but still checking the specs, and keeping things within, or very close to them if possible. I don't have gobs of money to throw at this engine, even more so because its not a high priority project for me, but rather a learning one. We just want to see if we can get this engine, which was completely stuck everywhere, cleaned up and back to working specks and running, cheaply.

On the other hand, I have a 56 chevy 235 for my truck (find my PU post for more info) that I am rebuilding, which is going to be a high dollar build. It was in rough shape as well, and I am cutting no corners with this engine, because it will be in a truck that will be worth much more than any of my AC's and I feel the extra effort is worth the money.

It's all about the project, what it means to you, and your goal for a finished product, also factoring in cost and time. Finding that answer is different for each project. The best you can do is read all you can so you can make educated decisions.

I'd love to see pics and know more when you get time Dick, I love reading about your engine knowledge, I've already learned tons on what to, and what not to do with these old AC engines from you, thank you!

-------------
Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45

Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 3:10pm

garry piston rings bearings and gaskets cost me the same as they do anybody. so why wouldnt you be thorough threw the entire build than to let something like cylinder wear having you reoccur those costs again in a year or so. unless youre going to sell it off to some unexpecting soul. I dont and will never understand someone skimping on the cylinders when the gasket kit and bearings are more than $300 by the way ring end gap should be .0045 per every inch of cylinder bore. cylinder to piston skirt clearance affects ring seal and thats all ive got to say about that.

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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 3:11pm

mlplanky, you are a talented well trained craftsman. I would hope that you did not think everyone that entered the hobby needed to start at your level.
I, myself not having your talent and knowlege have been able over the years to cobble up many engines of a verity of makes of cars,trucks as well as tractors and not have a bunch of problems. I am sure my work would not meet you standards. However I don't think you can find one question I have ask over the many years that I have been posting on the boards asking how to or why does to keep my engines running. You never know, someone you pegged as a cobbler might be someone you might need to as for help when you are getting around with a walker. (:^D

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Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 3:32pm

I agree with MLP in that on a tractor I would want to "do it once", but like Dick says, not everyone can afford to spend what it might require. I too would rather see someone rering an engine that really should have new pistons and sleeves and have a few $ to fix up some of the rest of the tractor and save it from the junk yard as opposed to letting it go. The more demand there is for replacement parts, makes them easier for everyone to get.
I frequently go back with a standard piston on my collection of small engines simply because either an oversize is not available, or it's just more than I'm willing to spend. The small engines will be unlikely to do more than run with no load, same as a tractor in a collection may only go to a show, parade, or on a tractor ride.
It all boils down to what I remember my high school auto shop teacher telling me once. You can do a 30,000 mile rebuild or a 100,000 mile rebuild. Both will run when finished.

-------------
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford

Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 3:33pm

Dick youre taking general statements not derected to no one personal . I like you .I like youre post. the craftsmen to cobbler was about monroe hand making his pistons and rods. anyone who hands made his products and set speed records is a craftsmen I gaurantee mr. monroes piston skirt to bore clearance and ring gaps were areas of concern for him. hope youre not to mad to read all of my posts maybe you will see where i am coming from on this. I am no means talented just well tried and tested. they was a statement once i do not know whom to give credit to for it but the quote was the only reason industry needs research and developent is cause of the designers ignorance . that fits me to the tee.

Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 3:45pm

Mplanky, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, however, your attitude would stifle a lot of ingenuity and creative effort. Years ago a neighbor kid decided he was going to put a 390 truck engine into a fox body 'stang. Everybody told him he couldn't do it. And worse, his entire collection of tools could be carried in your pockets, with the exception of a four pound hammer. He did make use of the high school fire axe and welder on the oil pan. And he had no garage. He truly was the shade tree mechanic!. But he did it. It looked like a train wreck, but he did it. Beat the snot out of the firewall with the hammer for clearance. put a tunnel in the oil pan for the steering linkage, Etc, etc.

I would rather have ten guys like him, that don't know the meaning of "can't", working for me than ten guys that can only tell me reasons why something can't be done, or isn't right.

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Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 4:00pm

lou i dont mean to sound like i am killing ingenuity. I am for ingenuity. if i wasnt I wouldnt own a 226 gas engine with a 4 3/4 bore . that school kid you mentioned thats alot of work even alot more work to take it out and freshen it because it want freshend to start with. i have been the school kid also alot more time and energy than funds . they are several tractors around that i have just unstuck got them running good at the time and painted them . but now they need engine work and there goes the paint job. and money right down the drain . redoos cost sometimes more than right the first time thats all i was getting at.

Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 4:02pm

This may be off the subject a bit , butI read some where that Henry Ford was often heard to say , Well lets try it and see why it won't work...... JM, re-ring your tractor and see why it won't work, but I'd bet it will for what you want. The ONLY time I would have a problem is if you tried to pass this off to some one as an overhaul. Gary PS, I don't think you would do that either..

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I started out years ago with nothing.... after this divorce , I'll be getting most of it back.........

Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 4:47pm

mlpanky ole boy I don't get mad at anyone. I don't get my feelings hurt as well. I used to a long time ago before I figured out that getting mad or having hurt feelings was a personal choice and I could choose not to. It really works if you want it to.
I was just trying to wake you to the fact that you might be putting down newbe's that are learning from the ground up. I see I was wrong about that from your explanation. When typing responces I also skip words that I thought while typing that didn't get typing which changed the meaning of the point I was making. That means that it was all just words without meaning. Dixie says that I talk that way also.

Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 4:59pm

well writing and typing isnt one of my strong points either. i guess thats why i enjoy wrench turning over anything else

Posted By: Dave H
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 5:00pm

I have been reading close and learning on this subject. If my D 15 II pops off, makes no noise or smoke out the top or bottom, then I will be happy. It ran almost that good when I tore it down.

If I don't relseeve and put new pistons etc in it, that will be no problem with me. I bet it will run great and get off and on the trailer once a year and complete the 20 mile tractor ride in style. I would never think of "pasing it off" to someone. It is for me and I could care less about what happens to it when I go to plow the big field in the sky.

I have a JD 420 that was bored and has new pistons et al in it. It runs about the same as the 8N that got hone and new rings.

I think "doing it right" means doing what makes the most sense economically to me as long as I get the product I am after.

The bottom like to me is that is will run great, wil not rattle and wheese and serve my needs.

I hope this is not taken as a rant, I just felt that I had to give my angle on it.

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Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 6:09pm

Ok lets try getting this back to a informative thread. If you were to look into a it manual for the ring gap for a d14 149 engine it would show that the 3 1/2 stock piston minimum ring gap is .007-.017. IF you use the .0045 per inches of cylinder bore the ring gap would be .0157. which fits in the specs. They are variables. ring gap is for the ring to grow from the heat occured during the combustion process. The distance from the piston top to the first compresion ring land and the compression ratio its self could have a impact on actually at what gap the ring would or wouldnt but at. More btus for energy more heat produced. I have personally used this formula on file fitted rings in performance applications and havent had any promblems . The calculation is for naturally aspirated engines 3 or 4 thousandth should be added to ring gaps for turbo or boosted engines. All my rebuilds are usually built to find some extra power over the stock . yes it my downfall i am a power junky.

Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 7:33pm

ML, have you ever used "Total Seal" gapless rings? I've always wondered about them if they would really hold up under extreme stress. My best guess is they are 2 rings in each groove.
Just curious, would your ring gap formula be the same for a diesel?

-------------
"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford

Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 7:58pm

My current pulling engine has them . I havent ran it yet . The rings really bite when rotating it . its only one ring per land has a spacer that makes it gapless . you still file fit them for the spacer. i tried to get the childs and albert z gap rings but they werent in production when i need them. if you have text messaging on youre phone .pm me with the number i can send some pics of the build . I am not sure on the diesel . I am using them on the 400 plus cubic inch 15.1 compression alky wd. naturally aspirated diesel with no more than 16.1 cr yes i would use it . the it manual for a d17 diesel shows top compression ring gap of .008-.016 so the formula stays again barely in allis specs .0163 . turbo should add 3 to 4 more thousandths.

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Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 9:32pm

i have taken more than one old tired engine , torn it down, did the ridge reamer trick, honed the bottom with a rough hone to take out .007-8 and straighten up the bore. Do a final hone, install new rings (.010 over filed to get a good gap), new gaskets, reshim the original bearings, and lap the valves myselft. You spend $60 for gaskets and $60 for rings on a B motor. I have a couple that have been around 7-8 years. They start on the first roll over and dont smoke or burn oil. I only run 100-200 hours per year with a disc or mower deck. It works, you just have to understand how things work, and what your doing. BTDT.

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-------------
Like them all, but love the "B"s.

Posted By: Ken(MI)
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2009 at 7:22am

JM, if you have less than .005 in your cylinders, ream the ridge, hone the bores, and make sure you have proper end gap in your rings and it will run fine. There are many good points presented above, but in the end, it really depends on the application. Your engine will run at 1300 RPM full load in stock form, and will live just fine. Making generalizations about clearances in engines is a huge no no. Eutectic pistons, cast pistons, forged pistons, RPM, endurance, basic engine charictaristics, and many other things play a huge part in all this, and any experienced engine builder will tell you this. With unlimited funds, I agree, if an engine is apart, make it as good or better than new, but if you are on a budget, there are ways to improve things if it's not too far gone. Total Seal rings are good, but they eat horsepower in race applications, we used to use them in Champ car turbo motors, and they did a good job over the long haul. Dick L. gives good advice, and is willing to share his experiences, both good and bad, listen to what he says, and you won't go wrong, he would be welcome in the garage with me anytime at Daytona, Indy, or anywhere else.

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Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2009 at 8:18am

i agree in a all out endurance engine low tension rings with gas ported pistons and a vacuum pump will make as much as 35 horses over conventional ring packages.

Posted By: NickT(Ky)
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2009 at 8:32pm

interesting thread, reminds me of the old forum

Posted By: ac crazy
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2009 at 12:36am

KINDA REMINDS ME OF AN AGE OLD QUESTION.... WHAT IS THE TRUE COST OF CHEAP? WHY IS IT THAT SAVING MONEY ALWAYS COSTS MORE IN THE END? I HAVE BEEN A SELF TAUGHT MECHANIC FOR NOW 30 YEARS AND WELL, I AGREE WITH DICK,BUT ALSO SEE THE FINER POINTS IN LIFE.... IT DEPENDS ON YOUR LUCK! IF ITS LIKE MINE IF YOU SAVE $5.00 IT WILL COST YOU TWENTY LATER....ITS YOUR TRACTOR THATS TRUE,JUST FLIP A COIN AND GO FOR IT.