Dropped washer while installing new brakes on CA
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Category: Allis Chalmers
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Topic: Dropped washer while installing new brakes on CA
Posted By: davefullmer
Subject: Dropped washer while installing new brakes on CA
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 6:57am
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I need some advice from someone who has been into the final drive housing of the Bull pinion shaft. When I installed new brake linings on my '53 CA, one of the washers on the anchor pins slipped away from me and dropped into the cavity on the right side final drive. I found out the hard way the when it migrates to a gear, it will lock up the wheel "right now"! It appears to me that I can remove the casting from the transmission and slide it off the Bull pinion shaft leaving the shaft connected to the transmission. Once the casting is off, it looks like I could clean out the interior of the housing, find the washer and reinstall it to the transmission without disturbing the connection of the shaft to the transmission. I should mention that the Lambert clutch evidently is froze up. The hand clutch lever has been removed by a former owner of the tractor. What do you fellows that have been in this area of the tractor say? Am I thinking right or am I overlooking something? I need to get this tractor back to earning it's keep. Dave |
Replies:
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 7:10am
If you dropped a washer down where the brake bands are there is no way the washer can get into a gear. You have no gears in that area. The pinion shaft has an oil seal to keep oil or dirt out of the cavity that houses the gears. It could get under the band which would act as a break on the drum, maybe. If the cavity below the brake bands is clean you should be able to fish out the washer thru the weep hole on the bottom side of the housing. If by chance it did get between the drum and new brake band you most likely will have to remove the band and re install it. (without the washer) |
Posted By: GlenninPA
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 9:15am
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The I&T book says if you do that, you need to pull the final off to get the washer out...... Never was into a CA, so can't speak to the truth of that statement, but that's what the book says.... ------------- Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment. From listening comes wisdom and from speaking comes repentance. Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. |
Posted By: davefullmer
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 9:48am
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Thanks for responding Dick and Glenn, Dick, the gear I am talking about is the end of the bull Pinion shaft that mates to the final drive gear. And the locking up can not be the result of getting under the brake band. It is to sudden and there is no give to the wheel turning at all. I am convinced that that washer gets meshed into the two gears. Glenn, I read the same thing that you did and going back to the ITT manual, I see that the pinion shaft has to come out with the final drive. Boy I hate to pull the whole final drive but I don't see any alternative. When the wheel locked up it causes the tractor to make an abrupt right turn. Even at third throttle in 2nd gear. Reverseing the tractor unlocks the wheel but it doesn't take long for the wheel to lock up again. I don't even want to think about what would happen in 4th gear. I will have to remove the final drive totally. I was just looking for someone who had done this on a CA, or a B, C. Dave |
Posted By: davefullmer
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 9:52am
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Glenn, Looks like I am going be getting some experience from my bad judgement.  |
Posted By: Dave Richards (WV)
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 10:42am
| Dave, if it is where you think it is, why cant you take the pan off the final drive and back the wheel up to disengage the washer from the gear mesh? |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 11:13am
| You had the pinion shaft out or the outside cover off to put new brakes in? |
Posted By: davefullmer
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 11:26am
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Dave Richards, No, I did not have the pinion shaft out or the outside cover off. I did take the cover off a couple of days ago to see what is happening or if I could possible reach the washer from there. Dick, The washer has to be at the top of the final drive to mesh with the pinion shaft gear. And since it keeps going back into the mesh, then in my opinion, taking the pan off would not accomplish anything. If the washer could be retrieved from the pan area, seems to me that it would drop down into the pan by it self. What I think is happening is that the washer is lying flat in the pinion shaft tube and vibrates into the mesh of the gears. When I reverse the tractor, it gets jarred back out of the mesh, but more vibration moves it right back into the mesh. Since it is lying flat, it won't stand on it's edge and slide down past the final drive gear. At least that's what I speculate is happening. Also, I now see that the bearing on the outside end of the Pinion shaft is totally gone. All that's there is the race. I am surprised that the gears meshed at all. Dave |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 11:36am
| I would guess if the bearing is shot that will be your problem with bearing parts caught in the gears. The shaft could have been bouncing around and knocked the seal out enough for something to get to the gears but I doubt it. Once you get it apart you will see how dropping something down on the bands would not be able to get by the seal normally. If that was the case you would have all kinds of dirt and crap in the final drive gears as well as have final drive oil on the brake bands all of the tiime. |
Posted By: Redwood
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 11:47am
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I would agree with Dick.
If the gears are open to the brake enough to let a washer through, then your break would be covered in oil. If this is the case the whole final drive needs some work. That being said loose metal floating around any moving parts is not good and needs to be removed to prevent further damage.
If your bearing is gone now is a good time to rebuild the final drive and check the gears for damage. Binding with that kind of force may have made the problem worse
|
Posted By: GlenninPA
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 12:12pm
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If your bearing is gone, it is a lot more likely that bearing debris is in your gears rather than the brake washer. I own a CA that has one rear wheel locked up, and it did briefly rotate when dragging it backwards, but I have not had the inclination to tear into it, I just didn't want it to get scrapped. Post some pictures of what you find. I am currently attempting to pull the brake drum out of a B final that was a mouse condo in the woods for who knows how many years..... So far, I am bogged down on the paragraph that says "....using a suitable puller...". Do you guys have any pictures of your favorite brake drum pullers? ------------- Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment. From listening comes wisdom and from speaking comes repentance. Wise men learn more from fools than fools from the wise. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 2:27pm
Gave up on pullers for those brake drums after the first B. Now I use a pinion shaft pusher.   |
Posted By: Chad(WI)
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 2:31pm
| I'm with Dick..my press is one of the most used tools in my shop. |
Posted By: davefullmer
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 5:51pm
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Dick, so you are saying that there is a seal between the brake drum and the gear at the outside end of the pinion shaft then? I need to go back and look closer at the IT manual. If that's the case then the washer would have to still be in the brake drum area. I do agree that ball from the bearing could be floating around and catching in the gear somewhere. Well, maybe tomorrow, the weather will cooperate so I can finish pulling the final drive off. While I am there, is there any chance I might be able to free up the Lambert clutch, do you think? |
Posted By: bently
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2012 at 7:22pm
| There is a seal between the brake cavity and the final drive and it's impossible for the washer to get in the finals unless the seal is completely gone, very unlikely. Better bet would be a bad bearing in the finals and pieces are getting jammed in the gears. I just rebuilt both sides on my ca and it's not that tough if ya got the tools to do it right. The clutch will get a little spendy though. I just replaced both brake drums on mine cause there was no fixing them. I did learn a lot on here reading old posts on the subject before I tore into it. |
Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 7:10am
| Sounds to me that you would need to call one of us guys and start at the very begining of your project.Sure would be alot easyer then all the guessing .Hard to help with something by guessing . |
Posted By: GregLawlerMinn
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 8:33am
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Dave Sounds like some debris from the outer pinion bearing is causing your problem, study the parts breakdown posted above...the parts breakout drawings are a great help in determining how to disassemble/reassemble your tractor; the IT manuals leave a lot to be desired. Link to AGCO's On-Line parts manual is below. http://www.agcopartsbooks.com/PartsBooksN/login.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.agcopartsbooks.com/PartsBooksN/login.aspx ? Log in as guest; enter CA in Model box, and select AGCO Allis from the drop down list. Dick L's suggestion on using a shop press to push out the outer pinion shaft sure beats using a BFH and lots of sweat. After pulling the final, remove the innier pinion shaft (it "floats" and should pull out easily). Next pull the hand clutch/brake assy from the outer pinion shaft (it is held in place with a half moon key to the outer pinion shaft). I have never seen one, but have heard that some have a retainer ring at the end of the outer pinion shaft that needs to come off 1st. Some come out easier than others. Some I have removed by pulling them out with my hands (the easier ones). I have had success on the tougher ones by using long pry bars (and lots of patience/persistance) thru the windows on the final and/or a long chisel behind the clutch). I have not done it, however, if you have a shop press you should be able to press the outer pinion shaft out of the hand cluch/brake pack (after removing the cover). After the hand clutch/brake pack is off, continue to remove the outer pinion shaft. Inspect your hand clutch, it may be able to be rebuilt. Check to see if it has been bolted and/or welded together (a common fix for a slipping hand clutch by previous owners). If hasn't been bolted/welded, place it in the shop press and try to force it open (corrosion may have rusted it shut). If that fails, remove the capscrews holding the clutch together (use a high quality allen wrench, penetraing oil and apply opening pressure with the shop press...be careful not to break the capscrews and/or ears holding it togeter). New lining, springs, etc are still available and it is not too difficult to rebuild one. I have made a pdf file with pictures on rebuilding the clutch and can email them to you should you pm me your reqular email address.
------------- What this country needs is more unemployed politicians-and lawyers. Currently have: 1 D14 and a D15S2. With new owners: 2Bs,9CAs,1WD,2 D12s,5D14s,3D15S2s, 2D17SIVs,D17D,1D19D;1 Unstyled WC |
Posted By: B26240
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 9:45am
| Keep us posted as to what you find, I have rebuilt two CA hand clutches and they arn't that complicated. I think you have final drive problems that have nothing to do with the washer. I found a 1/2 in. wrench in the brake area of one I worked on. |
Posted By: Robert Mull Georgia
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 11:45am
| I bet the washer you dropped is binding between the hand clutch and the housing. |
Posted By: davefullmer
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 4:04pm
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Well guys, I was doing a lot of guessing but the weather was beautiful today and since I had already taken off the seat and platform and removed the brake lining, I was ready to start pulling the final drive. I lucked out. I put my big old fork lift parallel to the tractor and put my sling on the housing, on one fork and then removed the 4 nuts holding it to the transmission. Then with a side motion on thr fork lift was able to slide the housing off the transmission. Surprisingly, the brake drum slid right off the pinion shaft. I didn't have to use a BFH to get it off. The woodruff key was really worn. also surprisingly, it really doesn't look as if the shaft or the brake drum is worn so it would be loose either. Don't have a camera available so sorry no pics. Both bearings are none existant The only thing left are the races. Also the seal looks as if it could have been there in 1953 when the tractor was built. The final gears are really in good condition. I don't even see any wear on the tips. The only thing I see is that one tooth on the upper small gear has a 1/4" chip out of one end of the tooth. But that won't cause any problem. I ordered new bearings today at the local supply house and they will be in tomorrow afternoon. They found a seal and had a new woodruff key so I came home and started cleaning out the junk in the housing. Also, there was the the washer in the area underneath the drum. So obviously, it was the bearing rollers that was causing the lock up. Also, when I took the pan off and poured out the water, I found lots of bearing rollers in the bottom of the pan. Yeah, water and not much oil although the gears were covered with oil. I am assuming that once I clean everything up I should put SAE 90 gear oil in the pan and fill it to the plug level? One final problem I am having. How the heck do I get the snap ring out so I can replace the inner bearing race? You guys have been great, Thanks for being patient with me and giving me suggestions on what I would find. I knew I could count on y'll and you didn't let me down. |
Posted By: davefullmer
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 4:43pm
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I thought you fellows might like to hear what happened about 3 weeks ago when the wheel first locked up. I use this little tractor on my 45 acres to bush hog, haul wood, and drag logs out of my 33 acres of woods. A year ago, I had the woods selectively cut and the loggers took out 44 semi loads of logs. I netted $5000 more than what I paid for the whole 45 acres in 1982 and I still have lots of trees of 16" diameter and some even larger. Anyway, my neighbor and I have been cutting firewood to sell and also gleaning what short logs we can use to cut into pallet material on my band mill. 3 weeks or so ago, I went down into the woods with a trailer behind the CA to pick up some firewood we had cut. I loaded the trailer about 2/3's full and went to move to the next pile. I started to move and suddenly the right wheel locked up and the tractor made a sharp right turn. I backed up and drove it about 600 feet, decided I could finish loading the trailer and started just into a trail to another spot and the wheel locked up again. This time even going slow in 2nd gear, I tunked a tree witht he right front wheel. I backed up again and went about 10 feet further and suddenly the front end dropped and the wheels were on the left side of the tractor. OH NO! Here I am, in the woods with a tractor that won't move and blocked with a trailer load of wood behind it. So I went for my old fork lift. This lift is an old one with 20 inch dual truck tires under the mast, but the traction is lousy on and wet ground. Fortunately, it had been several days since rain and I was able to ease it into the woods on the trail. First, I put the forks under the back of the trailer, looped a chain from the mast over to the front of the trailer under the tongue and back to the mast. I was able to pick up the whole trailer that way and carry it up the the wood pile that we were stacking. Half the job done. Next I went back to the tractor and put my forks under the rear axle and looped the chain under the torque tube just like I did with the trailer. And I was able to pick up the tractor that way and ease it out of the woods and up to my barn. There the tractor has sat until the day before I posted my first post and question. Just thought someone might get a chuckle out of my stupidity. I have a friend who is a certified welder and last week I took the front end out to his shop and in a couple of hours of welding we had the front end back in good shape with only 2 pieces of 1/2 by 1 by 22 inches added to the round 1! bars that make up the support to the wide front end. Don't laugh to hard at me now. Dave |
Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 4:57pm
| SEe ,now we get another story besides the washer falling .LOL |
Posted By: davefullmer
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 5:12pm
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Fred, I'm not going to tell you my story of tipping my WD over on it's side several years ago. |
Posted By: davefullmer
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 5:13pm
| Are you the Fred with all the WC"s including a '33 now? |
Posted By: captaindana
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 5:30pm
| Dave thank the Lord for that old fork lift!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 5:43pm
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davefullmer wrote:Posted By: WilliamNEOH
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 5:57pm
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Sounds like you got really lucky gettiing that brake drum off. When I removed mine it was the dick's way with the press. Hardest part besides that, is getting those snap rings in and out. ------------- CA,WD-45,D14&D17 |
Posted By: davefullmer
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 6:13pm
| But how did you get those snap rings out? How do you get behind them to pry them out? |
Posted By: davefullmer
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 6:14pm
| Fred, I love that maintainer. |
Posted By: WilliamNEOH
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 6:18pm
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A very large screwdriver and small prybar and a few curse words. ------------- CA,WD-45,D14&D17 |
Posted By: davefullmer
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 6:50pm
| Maybe I am not seeing something. Most machinery that i have worked on in factories, have a spot in the casting where you can get to the inside of the groove and start prying. Is one there that I don't see? Because unless you can get behind that snap ring to pry against, I don't see how it is possible to pry it out. |
Posted By: Fred in Pa
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 7:13pm
| 9 out 10 of CA's when I take the hand clutch drum off they side right out .It's the other side that you just drill out a few holes on drum and pull it . |
Posted By: davefullmer
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2012 at 7:20pm
| Fred, are you and I talking about the same snap ring? The one I am asking about fits in a groove between the bearing race and the seal on the inside end of the short pinion shaft. The bearing supports the pinion shaft right next to the brake drum. (right side of tractor) and is between the race and the seal. |
Posted By: davefullmer
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2012 at 6:19pm
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Well, I got the snap ring out, but we sure twisted it getting it out. I picked up new bearings and seals and a new woodruff key but will have to go to Agco in the moring to get a new snap ring. I am concerned about the shims that i am supposed to put on the end of the pinion shaft under the cover. I suppose I just need to pick up shim stock and make what I need. The housing has been cleaned up and if it doesn't rain tomorrow, I am going to start putting it back together. This is an outdoor project. The snap ring was the hardest part to remove. It wouldn't even move in the groove. I frist tried some Gibbs penetrating and kept hitting the ends with a screw driver. Finally, I decided to use the torch and heat it up. After it cooled some, tapping started it to move. Then we could move the race a little to give the snap ring some room to get a screwdriver under it. When we got it out is was a spirial by about an inch. Whew, Ever notice that the darn engineers still haven't learned to make things easy to work on?. |
Posted By: pumpkinman
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2012 at 8:31pm
| you dont have to take the snap ring out. it acts as stop so the seal dosent go in to far and so for bearing cup. push the old cup out with a long pin punch in stall new cup the same way the bearing stas on the shaft. the seal gos in from the trans end of the housing the bearing cup from the wheel end dont cut seal with the woodruf key when putting shaft back in |
Posted By: pumpkinman
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2012 at 8:43pm
| you dont have to remove the snap ring .it acts as a stop for the seal and the bearing cup. take a long pin punch and push the old cup out tap the new cup in from the wheel end of the housing, the seal from the trans end. dont cut the new seal with the woodruf key when putting shaft back in, |