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Piston Rings

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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4611
Printed Date: 15 Jan 2025 at 5:55pm
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Topic: Piston Rings

Posted By: Dick L
Subject: Piston Rings
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2009 at 1:40pm

I am not sure if it was this board or YT but a few years back I was explaining how years ago when I would overhaul and engine I would buy over sized rings after measuring the cylinders. I was taken to task and someone posted that it was mis information. I did a search and could not find any thiing to back up my statment and let it drop.

I just purchased a coupla sets of old stock oversized piston rings. I thought some might like to see them.

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Replies:

Posted By: Bob D. (La)
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2009 at 2:02pm

Dick, I don't remember the original post, but I too thought we used to be able to get oversize rings that would still fit the original piston. I seem to recall helping Dad overhaul more than one engine and that is what we would do. If I recal correctly, you could only bore the sleeves to.030 over. That has been a lot of years ago and not certain I'm correct about that though..

-------------
When you find yourself in a hole,PUT DOWN THE SHOVEL!!!

Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2009 at 2:17pm

A set of .060's sold last night but I didn't bid on them. The only over sized rings I had installed were .010.

I have a ring file to fit the over sized rings to the cylinder diameter.

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Posted By: Dave H
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2009 at 3:13pm

This subject is new to me. My question is. What part of the ring is oversized?

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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2009 at 3:35pm

Dave H, The diameter and the depth. I just received my first purchase today, one set of standard 3.5 and one set of 3.5 .020 over sized . I will take some pictures to compair the standard to the over size rings. Like I said a while back, in talking with a fellow that had over hauled his tractor and was getting oil out the breather, I ask him if he had checked the ring gap. His answer was, what is ging gap? He did not know that it was important to put the ring in the cylinder before it was placed on the piston to check and see the distance between the ends of the rings. (called ring gap)

The B, C, and CA calls for .007 ring gap. If you have 30 or more you will have blow by with brandy new rings. The wider the gp the more blow by. Some of the manuals will have a chart telling what the ring gap should be but the manual will not tell you when to check it. Some do. Some manuals assume you should know some of the details when you start. Make it tuff on a newbe.

Way To Wide

Posted By: Don Smith
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2009 at 3:53pm

Dick Thank you very much for posting on ring gap. I would imagine there are a few orange people who can use this information. Your posting is what I like about this site!! thanks again Don in Indiana

Posted By: skipwetle NWIA
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2009 at 4:08pm

I always check ring end gap when doing a rering job. I dont check on new sleeves and pistons. It been a long time since Ive seen oversized rings, but they are out there yet.

Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2009 at 7:06pm

When I'm not playing with orange tractors, I play with old small engines. Briggs & Stratton and Wisconsin were very good about supplying .002 and .005 oversize rings and pistons. It takes a while with a ridged hone, but a .002 and .005 can be done without paying a machine shop to do it.
Filing ring gaps and taking the time to get all clearances, etc perfect used to be called "blueprinting".

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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford

Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2009 at 7:58pm

The old art of rebuilding a engine has bee nlost as now most things are remanufactured or done in a machine shop. Knurled pistons or shot peened , fitting pistons and rings to bore or even lapping valves. A lot of the old ideas are now replaced with the disposable mentality or it fits , it's overhauled.

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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."

Posted By: norm [ind]
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2009 at 8:11pm

the rebuilder is the quality control inspector now according to my machine shop

the are having it happen all the time on new products have been in business for 30 some yrs. getting worse all the time my 2 cents we have had rod bearings in wrong packages std in .020 boxes

Posted By: Jordan(OH)
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2009 at 8:31pm

What happens if the gap is too tight?

Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2009 at 8:37pm

Dick, you talking about putting .030 over rings on a standard piston? I have done that with .010 rings. You got to watch the clearance as you said. If you are suppose to have .005 bore clearance and you have .015 at the top and can hone it out to "about round" and have .015 oversize, that is .010 EXTRA bore, which i believe is about the max. Since the circumference is 3.14 TIMES that much, your ring gap would go from .007 to .038 --- thats why i buy .010 or .020 oversize and file to get back to .007 --- thats what your saying, and still use the standard piston ??

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Like them all, but love the "B"s.

Posted By: Cal
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2009 at 8:52pm

Jordon If the ring gap is too tight when the engine warms up and the rings expand to the point that the butts touch the engine will sieze up, often times it will break aring. Cal in Ct.

Posted By: Wendell(OK/TX)
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2009 at 11:47pm

Dick, guess I missed the original post as well. Dad rebuilt a lot of engines when I was young and he was able to do it. Make, model or color didn't matter, Long as we had the equipment to handle it, one guy brought the just the engine to us after we told him we didn't have the stuff get it out of his big oilfield wrecker! Anyway, oversize rings were a common fix, especially for tractor and small engines. I have a set of .010 over for a B and a set for a WD that I picked up off EBAY several years ago.

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Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2009 at 7:08am

As Norm stated, the rebuilder has to be the quality control. Really it should always be that way for the rebuilders peace of mind. I have always checked ring gap on a new kit also. I found one pack of rings in a new box that would not square in the hole. It had an over lap rather than a gap. NAPA just replaced the one ring pack for me. Had I put them on the piston and tried to drive the piston down I would haf broken a ring and damaged the piston.
Steve, Yes the over sized rings were made ot use on the standard piston. When checking ring gap I use a bare piston to keep the ring square and check several places from the top to the bottom. Before deciding the amout of over size ring to buy you would need to hone to as close to the same diameter from top to bottom.

Time for PT, gotta go and will post pictures in a few days.

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Posted By: Dave H
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2009 at 7:50am

Dick

This has been real interesting for me. Right now I have the motor out of a D 15 II and it had a considerable ring groove so I know there is some "extra room" in there. I have for as long as I remember checked the ring gap as you desciibe.

I am just trying to get the geometry correct in my mind on the oversize issue.

So as usual, I will hone some to get a surface on all of the bore. Then measure the inside diameter top and bottom and in different points to find the amount of wear from standard in the bore. After all the measurements are taken in one bore I will use the tightest one. If the smllest diameter found (or should i use the average) is at least .010 over the standard bore then I can use the 10 over rings?

Reasoning is that if you would use a 10 over and set the ring gap but the bore was not 10 over then the ring woulld/may chafe and bind in the bottom of the ring groove on the piston.

When you get the time I would appreciate you expanding on what my thoughts are and if I do not quite understand the whole concept yet.

thanks - Dave

Posted By: Barry
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2009 at 7:54am

Boy you guys are great. I am somewhat of a newbie at this engine overhaul stuff. I've removed the head, pistons and sleeves from my C that has low compression. The pistons look OK although one has some scuffing. The sleeves are tapered .008. I'm planning to put new sleeves and rings in. Now I'll check the ring gap before I put the pistons back.

Going to remove the valves today. At least they don't appear to be burried down in the seats.