To mlpankey
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45117
Printed Date: 21 Aug 2025 at 7:38am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: To mlpankey
Posted By: mark vaughn
Subject: To mlpankey
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2012 at 9:15pm
|
I saw where you asked a question about the affects of a larger diameter lifter compared to the smaller lifter. My answer would be pretty much the same as Brian Jasper CO. La gave. There is only one racing class engine that i build anymore that has a flat tappet cam and that is a 305 cid sprint car class, and only because that is the rules, a solid lift flap tappet and chevy stock diameter lifter. I havent tried a bigger lifter on a camshaft since the 70's . I have two ex NASCAR Dodge engines in the shop right now and they have flat tappet cams in them because thats the rules. One has a camshaft in it that are 60 mm cam journals , it has 1.375 base circles lobes, .380 lobe lifts and 2.25 rocker ratios =.855 valve lift. The other I had crane cams build a roller cam for it and put that engine in a dirt late model. Now for my answer about larger diameter lifters on the same camshaft specs. Ive not seen much gains in actual performance myself. But what do i know, im just an ole arkansas boy that grew up on Allis Chalmers!! P.S. anybody elses input on the subject would be appriciated. Thanks, Mark
|
Replies:
Posted By: D-17_Dave
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2012 at 9:47pm
|
Nascar left the hydraulic lifter because the rpm's against the lift durations would work the oil pressure out of the lifters and allow the valves to not open. At least that's one of the reasons.
I have no real comment on the diam. issue with the lifters other than to say that a lifter contacts the cam based on the flat edge or width of the lobe and lifter as the rotation angle of the lobe is constantly changing. The force applied is applied from the valve spring. Closing rates based on moving the mass of the lifter and the valve require a certain rated spring tension. So, I would guess that a certain diam. lifter is required to supply enough surface area between the lifter and cam lobe to maintain an oil film so friction doesn't regrind the cam while running. Since a key component of oil has been removed in the last few years you see most engine manufacturers have switched to roller cams. But, I believe that ANY lifter needs to be large enough to support the oil film. Other than this I see where it is of no issue. ------------- Yea, I can fix that..... |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 12:05pm
|
If I remember correctly, part of the discussion I was reading talked about the lifter diameter and too small of a lifter would have the edge of the lifter dig into the lobe. I still need to give Barry Rabotnik a call so I can decide which cam to use in the 445 FE... ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 3:13pm
That is the real problem with a high lift cam and a small diameter lifter. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Brian Jasper co. Ia wrote:Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 4:20pm
|
Since those with sense are going to talk about it I will add my two cents. If I remember the question correctly he asked what was to gain from increasing the diameter of the lifter and the answer is nothing given that the cam is at optimum and the condition Brian mentioned is met. If a cam profile is not at optimum and cannot be ground as desired due to the ramp being at the edge of the lifter then yes, gains could be had by increasing the diameter of the lifter. The cam grinder can reduce the base circle to accomplish the same thing. All in all it's one of those things that just plain isnt worth a whole lot of chat unless a person cant get a grip upon what is going on with the cam and lifter to begin with. |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 4:42pm
|
He was makeing a lot of comments about spinning a 226 engine and he's been fishing for wi50 like alwayse after seeing the pictures. It's pankey being himself.
|
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 4:55pm
|
The larger the diameter lifter will have a cam with a larger flank. Just a tn boy who uses a.mississippi harold brookshire cams Ams ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Gary in da UP
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 5:01pm
| Please explain flank, in cam grinder terminology for me please, I have never heard that term used before. And thanks in advance panky. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 5:35pm
|
Flank is defined as the end of the ramp section to the point the lifter reaches maximum velocity ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 7:22pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 7:58pm
Your grip is not what you think it is Pank, Unless the first set of numbers you punched in has the the contact point off the edge of the lifter (which is unrealistic because the cam and lifters will be junk in seconds when started) it just cant be that a larger lifter gives more lift than a smaller one with the same cam. I said Optimum, not some BS numbers punched in a computer program so as to try to prove yourself right. I am not going to argue a point a 10 year old can understand without a computer program,,, believe what ever you wish. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 8:20pm
|
the larger diameter decreases presure angle gives the designer a opportunity to design a more intense flank along with the increase the duration and lift the diameter increase does by its self. i can provide technical bulletins from leading cam designers butch to prove you wrong if you wish. or just ask garry since your so wanting to prove me wrong. another whos joined the peanut gallery. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 8:36pm
| WTF! Same cam? The tippy top of the lobe is at the same height no matter how big a drum you set on it.NO? How then can it give more lift than it has? Don't mean to talk over your head with technical jargon like "tippy top". Help me understand your logic. Large dia will accellerate faster on same lobe but raise higher? HUH? |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 8:45pm
No different cam this time, same cam before, or was it something else? Must be some bad 'shine in that part of the world, LOL |
Posted By: Dnoym N. S. Can.
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 8:49pm
|
Large diameter will increase the duration IMHO B:-) Dnoym |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 9:21pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mark vaughn
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 9:23pm
| Do you tractor pull pankey? If so i hope its AC power. I saw the engine you posted pictures of and it was pretty nice. It takes alot of time to put sleeves in a block like that! |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 9:35pm
In simple terms, larger contact area, more load carrying (valve lift/spring pressure). ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2012 at 9:54pm
|
Ok, so now I'm picturing that cam in my head, just like the tire, a lobe with the same dimensions on a larger diameter shaft, (that's called base circle right) would open and close the valves faster wouldn't it? ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2012 at 12:14am
I'm new to this quoting thing.....Butch your puncuation or lack there of has me even more confused. Is it " No(comma) different cam this time". Or...." No different cam(meaning same) this time"?
|
Posted By: Mrbill69
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2012 at 7:17am
| A larger diameter lifter will do nothing on the same cam profile. But it will allow the cam grinder to grind a slightly more aggressive profile (ie: faster lift and close rates) without the edge of the lifter contacting the lobe. Not really something that a tractor engine would benefit from. |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2012 at 7:26am
Sorry Steve and everyone else I confused. Mitch deleted two posts that were a pretty outlandish read. The were only up for a couple minutes last night and you probably didn't get a chance to read them before he withdrew them. I posted that before he withdrew them and it was a tongue in cheek poke at his dodging back and forth on the base line facts. I forget that people here don't know my personality and cant see my face when posting, apologies offered and following explanation offered, We started out by trying to make the point that given any certain USABLE cam profile /lifter combination that changing lifter to a larger diameter only (again, replete, capitalized ONLY) isn't going to make one little bitty difference in the duration or lift at the valve. He countered that with a post that states a larger lifter would give "X" amount of extra lift based on computer generated numbers. Now I don't need a computer program nor does anyone else with a thinking cap on to know that is BS. I don't care of you set a 55 gallon drum on top of that cam lobe it isn't going to lift it one little itty bitty bit more than a sewing needle. His latest post says I am FOS because the cam grinders say if you enlarge the base circle and lifter diameter it will give the grinder some freedom in is ramps which is absolutely true but not what I am contesting. If this subject must be turned into rocket science we must separate lift, duration and ramp or acceleration of the valve from seat to open. Lift and total duration is pretty easy to understand and I wont waste space here to explain them, Ramp or acceleration is not as easy but damned important as getting the valve open and closed quickly without creating forces that will destroy the valve train is the goal. I think this is what Mitch is calling "flank" but I don't know? The grinder must also keep the point of contact within the face of the lifter diameter. If it goes past the edge bad things happen quickly. The faster the cam ramps up the further the point of contact travels away from the center of the lifter. This is why a larger lifter gives some freedom to how the cam is ground, it allows for the pint of contact to be further away from the center-line of the lifter. Another way they do it is to reduce the base circle of the cam. So why not just get some huge lifters and smack them like a baseball bat with an aggressive ramp and be happy? Because there are other factors involved too, mainly valve train weights and acceleration rates. You can start and stop that valve train so quickly it destroys itself as fast as you can install new springs, push rods and rockers. Heavy parts and fast accelerations and decelerations require heavier springs to stay away from valve train destroying float at hi RPMs. Cam and valve train design is pretty interesting when talked about intelligently. It just isnt as simple as big lifters cure all evils and I guess that is my point off all this rambling. |
Posted By: Lynn Marshall
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2012 at 9:11am
| ALL this tech talk makes me think of this. [TUBE]http://youtu.be/rLDgQg6bq7o[/TUBE] |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2012 at 9:12am
Butch hit that nail right on the head.
|
Posted By: mark vaughn
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2012 at 6:56pm
| Disassembled my coustmers other ex NASCAR DODGE engine today. The last track it ran at was Bristol. It also has a flat tappet solid lift cam in it because that is NASCAR rules. This camshaft has a hugh 1.542 base circle and the lifter dia. is .875. the cam lobe rise is .382 x rocker ratio of 2.230 = .851 valve lift at 0 valve lash. The spring pressure on these engines do rival roller cam spring pressures. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2012 at 7:29pm
|
Nascar definitely knows the advantage of larger base circles. wondering though with it being a dodge why the 904lifter wasn't used. Yes I have pulled tractors since 2000 and your right the bore and sleeves takes the same time that it would take to put 4 60 over big blocks out the door. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: SteveM C/IL
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2012 at 11:09pm
| Got it Butch.I think I know you well enough to not misunderstand yer speak but I must have missed the afore mentioned post so that's why I couldn't get what you were saying. You are correct on the whole picture about cams. I was reading a cam designers website and he went so far as to say that you can't accuratley copy/transfer a profile even with the best machines.Had a small explanation about lobe design/creation and after that it kinda made sense. Somethings are not as they seem. This may be one? Anyway,thanks for the update. |
Posted By: Stan IL&TN
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2012 at 7:29am
I have several farthing bearings and a coupe of dingle arms if anyones interested? ------------- 1957 WD45 dad's first AC 1968 one-seventy 1956 F40 Ferguson |
Posted By: Butch(OH)
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2012 at 7:38am
With the profile used the point of contact appearantly stays within the confines of a .875 diameter and as some have been trying to point out there is nothing to gain from going larger than required. However are minuses to going larger than need be the biggest being valve train weight. Other smaller factors are increased friction, weakening of the block. I take it that a 904 lifter is standard for that style of Mopar engine? If so and for them to go to all the trouble to use a smaller than std lifter??? Why hows come?? maybe they wanted to run last place?
|
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2012 at 12:48pm
|
The bigger the lifter the more agressive the flank can be designed before exceeding the pressure angle that tends to cock a lifter in the bore . .904 is mopars lifter size . without knowing the engine and seeing the cam why they went to a smaller lifter one could only speculate. However its been proven by cam grinders that will grind the cam flank for the 904 larger diameter lifters a horsepower increase can be found. In crane cams technical data their roller cam is desinged for a .750 wheel minimum and can be ran with a .800 wheel wich they recomend . In the tech.data they also give the duration change from the bigger lifter at each .100 of valve lift. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2012 at 6:01pm
|
The 1.5 diameter allis 226 mushroom lifter has a maximum velocity of.01284. The. 842 diameter lifter is.00700 inches to degree. That's the grip. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2012 at 7:47pm
|
For the readers which grasp the lifter diameter and its effects on maximum lifter speed. Now know why the allis 226 always responds to increased stroke as long as the connecting rod journal can pass the heal of the cam without contact. In my opinion . Revised when reread I had typed valve diameter. My mistake should proof read better. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mark vaughn
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2012 at 8:54pm
|
First off (Butch OH) you are right about the friction, block strength, and especially the recipicating weight of the lifter. NASCAR Engine builders have to really be concious about the weight of anything moving in the engine. When you run a 358 CID engine for 500 laps at a constant 9200 RPM on a 2.5 mile track you stuff better not be heavy internally. These 2 engines I have were built by Arlington that build engines for some Dodge teams. The reason they run such a huge camshaft barrel 60mm journals is to deture camshaft flex, and also to run the big diameter lobes they run. The camshafts are now designed and ground by their own engine techs. for their own teams. These men designing the camshafts for these engines would make some of NASA engineers confused. Now I am not a camshaft designer, nor am I a NASCAR guru, but they do exist. If you don't believe it, watch Daytona in 3 weeks. Ok mlpankey, you are also very right about the crane data about roller cam wheels, and I also agree about the cam flank for the .904 Chrysler design. PS. These Dodge NASCAR engines I have do not have any parts that interchange with any factory Dodge peice. The heads are basically a SB2 Chevy same intake and exhaust valve angles and tilt. The toyota engines are built by American engineers, and they took the best of Chevy, Dodge, and Ford engines to build it.
|
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2012 at 9:34am
Rod B if you see a article on maximum lifter velocity of a Allis 226 1.5 inch faced mushroom lifter let me know . Plagiarism could be a issue ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2012 at 2:28pm
|
Well I won't waste my time, but for our amusement, why will you never answer my question as to why you did not put your rig back togather as you told us you were going to? Rember? That trip you were going to take and the video you were going to make?
I find it amuseing someone thought that nifty roller setup in a 226 must have been pinned lifters at first haveing not seen the pics, than when the pics were put up it was all made up and trick photography. A few weeks later now I see that you have seen it years agoe. More dogging around and fabricated stories from our resident wannabe expert.
I do know the real reason those parts were made, I picked up my parts from WI and got to learn why. For someone who can not comprehend how he can tube and shape a port to get it to flow well also can't understand why those parts are needed.
|
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2012 at 4:17pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mark vaughn
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2012 at 7:14pm
| mlPankey I know 0 to nothing about tractor pulling. What brand of camshaft do you run in your engine and what CID do you have? I have a uncle that pulls a WC ALLIS some in AR and MO but there some heavy hitters out there. It looks like any other motor sports, it takes lots of MONEY and yet all the money in the world cant buy the experence it takes. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2012 at 8:00am
Ac wd 400 inch Ron iskyderian splatter pattern grind. Pretty well stopped any carbon forming in intake from reversion gave next cylinder a little more fill since its intake ports siameezed. Its a good combination when you stick enough stroke in one to get the piston velocity up to work with the velocity the valve is seeing from the 1.5 inch face mushroom lifter.my opinion  ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 9:41am
I am not dogging at all sir, mine ol tractor has ran fine for a number of years. I'd love to come see you run sometime. My brother lives down in Kingsport, I now travel there being retired.
Please let us know where you are pulling this thing of yours. I do plan to attend Princeton In. and Tallmadge OH. NATPA pulls shortly, possiably you could come to one and show your stuff?
The reason you did not have any carbon forming in your intake is because your engine ran for how long? A matter of minutes. Must be a poor flowing head in order to need all that lifter velocity you seam so proud of. I seen those pictures and with the 1.5 or 1.6" intake port there is not enough area to support any reasonable flow numbers for a 400 inch engine. Better engine design will yeild better results next time, but you are learning.
|
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 2:07pm
|
Had larger than 1.6 port. You ran so well for so long why did you need parts from wi? We ran since 2000 not a one motor deal. However one should run the smallest cross sectional diameter that can flow the numbers if he wants to make power.have you went to a smaller diameter lifter? If not then you like Valve speed to. Like east tn says any puller welcome to pull. We around Rutledge bring what we have and hope we bring enough.no rpm limit no rules just make weight. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: lussetto
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 3:20pm
|
"We around Rutledge bring what we have and hope we bring enough.no rpm limit no rules just make weight"
Hope you guys don't learn about the importance of safety equipment the hard way. Ignorance will not keep a flywheel in one piece.
Greg
|
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 4:19pm
|
That is true lussetto. I have seen pank's front pulley and read how he drilled the cast flywheel full of holes to make it balance. Someone is trying to take us for a ride here and keeps skateing around any questions asked as to where we can see it run.
|
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 5:27pm
No one skating but if you don't know how to externally balance a rotating assembly I doubt you run anything but a car down the road to sit in stands as a spectator.who knows you could by a engine or puller wi has one in the classifieds.by you account its the best bang for the buck and would get you out of the stands.  ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: lussetto
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 5:44pm
|
Rod, your first mistake is wanting to even see this tractor or any tractor pulling by those rules run. I personally feel no need to be a part of a Darwin Award waiting to happen.
Greg
|
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2012 at 8:23pm
|
You're a funny guy Greg, but we don't have to worry. Once again I am amuseing myself at panks expense. He does not have a running tractor to pull in any modified or hotrod class. He'll keep dogin around the question as to when and where one can see the darwin machine.
|
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2012 at 12:06pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Rod B
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 7:56am
|
In all the time you have spent telling us, you could have shown us. Talk is cheap sir, and if that is all you can afford to do I understand why you can't compete.
Or you do not compete because you are afraid, ashamed or know you can't? After all you told us you were going to last winter and have done nothing about it.
|
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 9:32am
|
well as alwayse I see my parts have been quite a subject for some as well as my time situation, while they know nothing about the project to start with. I been too busy to get on the forum much but have gotten a pile of parts and work done.
I get out and run my tractor as much as possiable. Not as much as I used to or would like to but as much as I can with what I have going on for my business. But the point I'm makeing is that for working thousands of hours a year, getting my own equipment and projects done, getting others items out the door, farming a few thousand acres, running a business on top of all that and raising a family, wife working full time I still manage to get more done and have a little fun pulling than some people. I suppose it's all in how one manages their time now isn't it.
You should be a little nicer Rod........the truth is a source of agrivation for some and entertainment for others. You had me laughin though.
Maybe next week we can read about "all things shiney" again. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 4:34pm
|
I knew you would post and on valentines day. How special. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 4:37pm
|
Rod b talk is cheap. I guess that's why you can't afford any pictures to post but then it would be of someone elses work right. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: wi50
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2012 at 8:01pm
|
Rod is a really sharp guy, and runs a nice tractor, he won't mind me saying that I only did the head and manifold for his new project. He can tell the rest of the story if he wishes....... but we've talked on and off for a few years and he finally commited to trying something off the wall. ------------- "see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something...... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet" |