12 volt conversions switch or not to switch
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41277
Printed Date: 10 Nov 2024 at 3:40pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 12 volt conversions switch or not to switch
Posted By: Tony Elo
Subject: 12 volt conversions switch or not to switch
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 7:03pm
|
When converting to 12 volts,if I switch to negative ground,do I have to change the wires on the coil?Also what is the opinion of people,switch or leave original.I have a WD and a WD45 that I am fed up with the six volt system.I know this probably has been posted here before but even when I was in school I didn't like to pay attention,any input would be appreciated,Tony
|
Replies:
Posted By: JimD
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 7:06pm
|
You will get pretty balanced, but passionate opinions on whether or not to convert. If you go to negative ground, yes, you will have to swap the polarity on the coil. Most 6 volt problems are from installing too small of battery cables and can be resolved with at a minimum of 0 gauge wire. I use 00 on our 6V tractors and they all start just fine. JimD
-------------
Owner of http://www.OKtractor.com" rel="nofollow - OKtractor.com PM for an instant response on parts. Open M-F 9-6 Central.
We have new and used parts. 877-378-6543
|
Posted By: Alberta Phil
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 7:07pm
Mine are all on six volt with proper size cables and I don't have any problem with them.
If you switch to 12 volt you will have to change the coil to a 12 volt unit anyway so you can go with either polarity at that point. You will also have to swap your 6 volt generator for a 12 volt unit or an alternator. Also light bulbs, otherwise they will be very bright for a very short time!!LOL
|
Posted By: SteveC(NS)
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 7:14pm
|
Oops, everything was better said while I was hunting and pecking on the keyboard.
|
Posted By: Tony Elo
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 7:24pm
|
Thanks for the input guys,the biggest problem I have is the connections not staying clean,seems they forever have to be cleaned on a six volt system,I am going to find some really heavy gauge cable for the wd and try it first before converting it,thanks again,Tony
|
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 7:33pm
|
Have someone fabricate a set of cables using heavy welding cable, Tony. You might find someone at a truck repair shop who can help.
|
Posted By: TedBuiskerN.IL.
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 8:31pm
Farm and Fleet has the proper cables on hand for both the WD and WC. Don't forget the ground wire has to be large too. I prefer the strap type for a ground.
-------------
Most problems can be solved with the proper application of high explosives.
|
Posted By: BrianC,Ont
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 8:47pm
Make sure the ground cable is bolted to the engine somewhere, and not on a bracket.
-------------
35WC on steel, B with belly mower, D17 puller, D15 Series II puller, D15 Series II with loader, 608 Lawn Tractor
|
Posted By: jb from md
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 9:11pm
i switched both my wd 45's over to 12 volt and rewired them years ago and no problems yet and im not looking back. i had the generators switched over instead of going with an alternator, i like the original look...Jb
-------------
8050 FWA, 190XT, 185, Styled wc, Unstyled wc, (2)C, (2)WD45NF, WD45WF, WD,416h, 716h, 312h, 8070 pedal.
|
Posted By: NickT(Ky)
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 9:17pm
|
I had 6 volt tractors stall out in the middle of cultivating tobacco patches. 12 volt conversion fixed that problem!
|
Posted By: stray
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 9:23pm
I've had good luck with some types of battery post protectant. I've use mainly to types one is a brush on looking gel and the other is a spray can that looks a lot like red paint when it is applyed, but don't harden like paint. This will help keep the connection between the post and cable clamps. I perfer the the spray can to the brush on, it dries but don't harden (dust don't seem to stick to it), but is harder to get complete coverage. The brush on you can get better coverage, but like I said the dust and every thing sticks to it.
-------------
1969 190XT series 3
|
Posted By: MACK
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 9:56pm
|
Put a 12v battery on, put a resester on coil and go to work. The gen. don't know if it is 6v or 12v it charges amps. Ran 2 of them for years until gen. went bad then replaced with alt. and then turned coil and battert around and switched wires on amp gauge. MACK
|
Posted By: m16ty
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 10:00pm
When I buy an old tractor, if the 6v battery is good and it starts fine I leave it 6v. As soon as the 6v goes to giving me trouble it's going to 12v.
Don't forget to swap the wires on the back of the amp gauge in addition to the coil when changing polarity. Otherwise it will work backwards.
|
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 10:31pm
6 volt systems all my life have needed regular battery post cleaning, about twice a year even in a car driven daily. There's just not much tolerance for a bad connection. But fat battery wires will help the starting a lot. A full fledged regulator instead of a three brush constant current generator will make for better battery life too. A solid state regulator will do even better. Part of the improved performance of the alternator at 12 volts is its lack of back current when its just barely not charging where the relay type cutout takes as much as 10 amps OUT of the battery to shut down. Part of the improved performance comes from more rapid battery charging, and a lot comes from more precise voltage regulation that doesn't abuse the battery. In the days of the relay type regulator SAE standards accepted 13.5 to 15 volts as charging voltage when the battery needs it held to 14.200 (at 68 F) volts. The solid state regulator holds that precision very well and gives much better battery life. Back in about 1969, I built a solid state regulator for a 12 volt VW generator in a 6 volt bug. It used a diode for cutout and regulated far closer than the original (and I had lab quality voltmeter and ammeter in that bug) and I got as long as 6 years on a 3 year battery because it regulated properly.
Gerald J.
|
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2011 at 11:37pm
|
One big reason to the 12V conversion is the battery itself, you can find 12V batteries everywhere and they are fresh , as a 6V may have sat oround for 6 months or longer sulfateing the plates while it sat waiting for a new owner.
On 6 or 12 volt the cable size is important, many new cables are undersize and I have even seen aluminum cables sold for automotive use. You can also use the paste used for AL wire connectors as a dialectric grease to prevent corrosion, using it on battery post to cable clamp.
Finding a 12V generator off 55 to 64 GM viehicle will give you a stock looking unit and the front pulley will interchange to give you the wide belt profile. A 3 pole regulator off the same viehicle will complete the unit 9might want to go to solid state unit though and you will need a switch in system to shut down feed to regulator points . A coil off same year viehicke will work also along with the balast resistor for same.
-------------
Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
|
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 1:52am
These days that 6 volt battery supply situation is quite true. And a battery that sits months without being charged goes bad on its own. I had much the same problem with battery life with the long skinny JD 4020 (gas) battery until I changed from poorly regulated and low current generator to an alternator and a side terminal battery mounted close to the starter. Its not what the correct police would like to see, but its not that much worse than the tractor painted with so many coats of paint (with the generator gloss black) under so many coats of clear coat that the hex connection nuts on the generator are shiny black and round.While the display tractor has the generator mounted crooked adding a twist to the belt. Like one I saw basking in the spotlight at the 2 cylinder Expo in Waterloo once. At least alternators were early 4020 options when supplied with a cab and air conditioning.
Even when getting a 12 volt battery its optimum for car, truck, or tractor use to learn to read the factory date code and go to the back of the battery rack and get one made in the current month, rather than the old one on the front of the battery rack. If you can't get to the back of the battery rack, shop in some other store. 40 years ago and more reputable battery stores actually keep their battery stock floating with chargers to slow the deterioration, though picking the latest date still got the customer a longer service life.
I think the engineers would have installed alternators if they had been available when these tractors were built, but the modern alternators depend on solid state rectifiers, though there were Leece-Neville alternators on trucks and emergency vehicles with external selenium plate rectifiers. Those were an expensive after market option. And some used the vibrating relay and others a carbon pile regulator where the voltage changed the pressure applied to a column of carbon and so changed the field current. That carbon pile regulator was used on aircraft generators during WW2 also.
Gerald J.
|
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 7:15am
|
We offer a 12V conversion for the early Tractors, but I always ask our customers what are you using the Tractor for? You may not need to convert. If its a work horse that's used around the farm constantly, and has a few extra lights needed for early evening work and implement hookups, then it may be advantageous to upgrade to 12V. If its a hobby tractor, or a tractor used around the farm on occasions with the other work force of equipment, and doesn't need to have exta lighting or accessories on it, then leaving it 6V would work fine. Its really up to the individual on how the machine is used. The two biggest excuses I hear at our shop is the engine doesn't turn over fast enough or it ain't charging. Most of the time its a 65+ year old Starter motor or Gennie that's pretty tired out, after its 52 rebuilds with bushings, brushes, and bearings and never an arm put in either. As the guys mentioned, correct size cables are super important, along with a little more attention to cleanliness to keep the 6V system in tip top shape. Most of my Tractors are still 6V. My IB is converted to 12V w/alt. because of the extra accessories I have on board that I use. Gerald made a good point with upgrades to the 6V system which increases reliability to the system. Electronic ignitions, voltage regulators, etc are nice upgrades to the 6V system. Yeah, their not OEM, but they help, and can be hidden if the OEM look is important to you. 6V Batteries are becoming a problem with sitting around on shelves for long periods of time as mentioned that's for sure. Just because it's new to you, doesn't mean its been "freshly" built. If you do find a Battery dealer that moves quite a few Batteries, and rotates his stock, you're much better off purchasing a much fresher 6V Battery from that person, that once put into service will last you quite a few years. The 6V Battery in my B went 7 years to my surprise before I renewed it just this year. Battery tenders help emensely with keeping sitting Batteries active to keep sulfation down, (especially during the winter months) which applies to 6V or 12V , and getting more life out of a unit. Bringing them inside to a warm basement or garage helps to. Whatever you decide for your particular application, some of the newer upgrades really enhance an old system, and in my opinion is a plus...
mailto:Steve@B&B - Steve@B&B
|
Posted By: Brian G. NY
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 7:45am
|
Mack,
Is that a fact; a 6 volt generator will charge a 12 volt battery?
I always heard that some (but not all) 6 volt generators gould be made to charge 12 volts by adjusting the brushes.
I'd like to hear more about this.
|
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 8:04am
|
Brian: Some 6 volt generators *can* charge a 12 volt battery. A 3-brush generator can sometimes be adjusted to put out enough voltage. Your mileage may vary. And contrary to what I'm seeing in a few posts, generators (and alternators) do NOT put out a constant current. Generators tend to put out a voltage that is somewhat dependent on the RPM. The regulator puts out a constant voltage. 13.8 to 14.4, dependent on temperature, is ideal. The amps will depend on the state of the battery's charge. A fully charged battery with 13.5 volts applied will "float." It will neither gain or lose a charge. It will not boil either. Alternators tend to put out higher voltages at lower RPMs. This is why they are better suited for charging. If you are going to switch to 12 volts and you want a more authentic look of your tractor's year, go to the bone pile and get an old 12 volt generator and regulator.
|
Posted By: Dakota Dave
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 8:43am
|
I converted all mine to 12 volt with modern alternators. I also converted my Dads ytractors many years ago. A 6 volt will start if well maintaned. it was alwas 20 below and snowing like crazy when I had to pull the stupid 6 volt battery bring it in the house clean and charge it because the tractor wouldn't start. after converting to 12 they always started and as a bonus we now had lights that were brighter than two candles out in front. If its going to be a show tractor and not have to start in the bitter cold keep it 6 volts.
|
Posted By: Nathan (SD)
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 9:39am
|
I switched most to 12 volts because I got tired of dealing with those fat azz battery cables. I am a modernizer. Whatever is most common and convienient is what I want. Out here in the sticks, it is hard enough just dealing with common stuff. And for the record I have never changed polarity or voltage on a coil.
|
Posted By: Bill Long
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 10:33am
Listen closely to what Steve NJ says. He is our resident electrical expert and knows.
Also, listen to the posts that are said above. We had 6 volts tractors for the life of our dealership and found that HEAVY DUTY wires and clean contacts were necessary for good performance. In fact all tractors came through with an original STRAP ground.
However, at the end when we had some cold Maryland Winters we used to jump 12 volts from a car battery. Worked well and got our units started.
Good Luck!
Bill Long
|
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 11:14am
Fact is the 3 brush generator IS a constant current machine. The position of the third brush sets the amount of armature reaction that adjusts the field strength to hold the current constant. At low speeds the current and voltage does fall off for battery charging. That characteristic is why the 3 brush generator will take on an 8 volt battery without adjustments and sometimes a 12 volt battery.
With constant field current/voltage all simple (not three brush) generators and alternators have output voltage EXACTLY proportional to shaft speed. So one way to get more voltage (sans regulator) is to change the pulley and turn the dynamo faster. When the field current is supplied by the output voltage, the output voltage rises faster than the shaft speed until the field core is saturated, then it goes back to directly proportional to shaft speed. I've run a 6 volt generator as a motor (makes a decent 1/3 hp motor) on 6, 12, and 24 without destroying it.
Long ago, before college I didn't realize these effects and my dad and I rewound a 12 volt generator armature and field with half the size wire, twice the turns to run 24 volt DC surplus radio equipment. 4 or 5 years later in college taking a DC machinery course I learned we worked too HARD and all we needed to do was spin it faster with more field excitation. But my dad had been a motor repairman and actually doing the rewind was super education for me. Later when consulting in electrical accident litigation (after four years of college and 8 years of graduate school and then industrial experience) it was fun to answer the cross examining attorney's question on where did I learn about motors, to say, "At my father's knee. Then I went to college."
I have found few college graduates who have rewound motors and who have designed and built transformers which I have.
I still like university libraries and my library card is active though its been 35 years since I last graduated.
Gerald J.
|
Posted By: DougS
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 11:50am
|
A generator puts out a constant current, regardless of load? I don't think so. Perhaps a somewhat constant current capability within a range of RPM. Capability being the key word here. You definition of a constant current source must be different from mine.
|
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 12:37pm
Yup, pretty much the same current independent of load from a few volts until the armature core saturates. The output voltage can still depend on shaft speed, but the third brush regulates the current and since a battery being charged will take almost any current (up to 100s of amps) when the charger can supply it, its the constant current characteristic of the 3 brush generator that will charge hard. Unfortunately for the battery the 3 brush generator will also over charge the battery. That's why drivers of 30s vintage cars with 3 brush generators turned the headlights on during the day to divert current from overcharging the battery. That's why vintage AC tractors connected the field current resistors to the head light switch. To try to set the charging current to the load.
Constant voltage generators make lousy welders too, constant current works far better in making a consistent arc current despite variations in arc length.
Gerald J.
|
Posted By: Tony Elo
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 3:52pm
Posted By: SteveC(NS)
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 4:53pm
|
Tony, I see the response has left you speechless, LOL.
|
Posted By: Tony Elo
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2011 at 9:37pm
|
yeah I was reading throught them and I accidentally clicked on the post reply button
|
Posted By: Rick of HopeIN
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2011 at 6:58pm
Previous owner switched my D14 to 12volt and it starts awfully good.
-------------
1951 B, 1937 WC, 1957 D14, -- Thanks and God Bless
|
|