Farm Equipment - What kind of spare block is this? Power unit.

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What kind of spare block is this? Power unit.

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Category: Allis Chalmers
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Topic: What kind of spare block is this? Power unit.

Posted By: Jacob (WI,ND)
Subject: What kind of spare block is this? Power unit.
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2009 at 1:40pm

Hi all,

A couple of days ago the PO of my C "Frank" dropped off some more of the "spare parts" that went with the tractor.

One of these things was a spare engine. It has all the engine inturnals and head, but minus the valve train assemble I guess. (I havent been home to see it yet, but will be home this weekend for thanksgiving)

From what we can deduce, they parted out an early, non electric B, which is where most the spare parts I got came from. I have the majority of the front on the tractor, mainly just the torque tube back that I'm missing.

Anyway,

I had Dad look at the numbers in the block today to see what they said, and that is where I get confused.

The engine casting number is AM 2916 29, which according to Bryans site makes it a 1957?

The stamped engine serial number is CR 44701GA

What is that about? I thought they all started with CE?

Now, this is what we believe an early B because that is what the front axel, toolbox, are, and the block does not have the genetrator on it, but does have the two mounting bosses taped for the generator bracket.

It is set up now with just a short fan belt and no generator.

There is also no ring gear on the flywheel which goes along with the no electrics thing.

Is there anything else I should look for to figgure out what this engine is?

The CR thing and the numbers not sinking up with an early B is what is throwing me off. What am I missing?

Thanks for the help!

-------------
Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45

Replies:

Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2009 at 5:08pm

It for sure isn't a original 38 or 39 B Block. The last number of the casting number could be a 9 or 10 or 11 in 38 and 39 and the engine serial number is stamped into a small flat on the back of the block. It begins with a BE. A place for a generator braket does not exhist on these early blocks. Some BE blocks in 40 and 41 had bosses and holes tapped for a generator bracket.

Look for a casting date on the head under the valve cover. It may be buried under oily muck. If the head stayed with the block since new it helps date the block.

The CR prefixd number (3 3/8" bore. 1900 r.p.m.) were used in: 60H Gasoline power units PU-53977-B and up. and 60H low octane fuel power units PU-55480-B and up

Congratulations. You got a power unit engine. They sometimes are low hours engines compared to tractor engines the same age

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Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2009 at 5:25pm

The rest of the story

BE engines were used in B tractors B-101 to B-64500

CE engines were used in B tractors B-64501 and up > IB tractors IB-1001 and up> C tractors All

BE and CE engines were also used in B-125 power units. R prefix engines were used in 60H power units prior to PU-53977-B gas and PU-55480-B low octane fuel

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: Jacob (WI,ND)
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2009 at 6:19pm

Ahhh....

That makes more sence! I didn't think power unit engines....

To tell the truth, I know very little about power unit engines. I guess I have a lot to read up on now....

I'll see if I can get the head casting number. What am I looking for exactly?

Are there dating lists for the power units then out there?

Any pointers on what to read up on for Power units? I'm not sure where to turn, LOL! What exactly is a 60H power unit?

I guess they must have parted out various things for these "spare parts" then, not just a tractor...

lots to think about now.... To the books!

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

-------------
Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45

Posted By: Jacob (WI,ND)
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2009 at 7:26pm

So my mind is filled with questions now... I'm going to do some thinking out loud here, feel free to chime in at any time, LOL!

Among the parts I got, were a manifold and carb, and two radiators. Is there any way to tell if these belong to the power unit?

For curiousitys sake, is there any way to know what kind of setup was on the rear end of this power unit? PTO, belt pulley, etc...? Not that it really matters, just curious...

I was just talking to my Dad, and after I told him about the engine being a power unit engine, he then mentioned that it had a "wierd mounting bracket on the front", which makes since, LOL! To bad the rear stuff is gone. And I wonder why the valve train was striped off the power unit? Mabey that was taken off and put on Frank already? I'll have to find some head casting numbers and see what adds up, or dosent add up...

This is all so much fun, I guess I got the orange bug bad. When a guy is excited to drive 10 hours home for vacation and get to look at some rusty crusty old orange iron. Is it wednesday yet? ;)

-------------
Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45

Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2009 at 7:33pm

Power unit engines bolt right up in tractors. The blocks are all cast the same.

You should not have any trouble finding a year and month casting date on a head if they have one. Some don't. It looks like the date was stamped in a tag screwed into the mold. The impressions of the slotted screw heads show up good sometimes ahead of and behind the date. The numbers are not always in the same exact place. You just have to look careful and hope you find the date.

Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2009 at 8:13pm

Check to see if the spare radiators are presurized or non presurized. Easy way to tell is if the gas cap fits the filler neck or not. If it fits its non presurized. It's for early BE engine applications. All the CE and CR engines should have a presurized cooling systems with pressure cap radiators.

When you say valve train is missing do you mean rocker arm assembly? They have a bad habit of getting sloppy and worn out and it may, like you say, now be part of "Frank". Stick a crank in it and see if it's stuck. Everything like the carb, the manifold, the oil filter, the governor, the aircleaner, the waterpump, should be the same as on tractor engine the same age. The air cleaner could have a longer stack.

Posted By: Jacob (WI,ND)
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2009 at 8:33pm

Ken in Texas wrote:

Check to see if the spare radiators are presurized or non presurized. Easy way to tell is if the gas cap fits the filler neck or not. If it fits its non presurized. It's for early BE engine applications. All the CE and CR engines should have a presurized cooling systems with pressure cap radiators.

Yes, the rocker arm assembly is what I ment. (again, I havent seen it in person yet, but going off of what dad has said). The air cleaner is missing, so no clues there. I would bet the engine is stuck too, based on the discription Dad has given me, it sounds like its fairly crusty, but the way I look at it, I have nothing to loose. Soak her with oil, get it all loose, take apart, inspect and depending on what I find, put back together and have a possible good running engine. I think I have most the parts to do so, with the exeption of the rocker arm stuff...

And I suppose if I amass enough parts, I could put together another tractor... oh oh, Dangerous thoughts abrewing....

There was a box of mag parts too I guess, and sounds like there is at lease enough to make one good one, mabey even two (there are two housings). Depending on if the parts are good...

And there is a starter switch too, so with any luck that will work with the missing one from Franks starter (or we can at lease make it work mabey).

It's like christmas!

-------------
Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45

Posted By: morton(pa)
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2009 at 9:29pm

Just a correction on Ken In Texas 's post...

BE engines were used in B-116 power units

and

CE engines were used in B-125 power units.

The numbers were the Cubic Inches of the engine for these 2 power units. Not sure about others like the W-206 but I would assume the same? Not real familiar with the WC and WD tractors...

They did separate the 2, at least thats what I have listed in my dealer parts catalog which covers everything B related (power units, IB's, B from '37 Waukesha to the last variation).

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Posted By: ACD19farmboy
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2009 at 7:52pm

your tractors name is frank right i rember seeing a C named Frank on youtube it this yours?

Posted By: Jacob (WI,ND)
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2009 at 8:25pm

ACD19farmboy wrote:

your tractors name is frank right i rember seeing a C named Frank on youtube it this yours?

Yep, that's me and my tractor. Who'd ever think he'd be such a hit? LOL!

Posted By: Cal
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2009 at 9:31pm

I have a power unit engine in one of my Bs and it has aluminum rocker arms and a drip tray to keep too much oil away from the valves, it also seems to have a quicker governor, I used the PU radiator also. This power unit was on a silo blower. Cal in Ct.

Posted By: Jacob (WI,ND)
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2009 at 8:52pm

Hi all,

While I was home for Thanksgiving this past weekend, I got to spend some quality time tearing into this power unit engine block with my Dad.

It's going to be a big project, not just a bolt up and get 'er to run one. Its stuck, bad!

We soaked everything down but it gave no sign of wanting to free up and spin. Not even any wiggeling.

So we started to take things apart. Though it looked fairly good, everything that could be stuck, was. Got the caps off the mains, and conecting rods. Took the rear main seal plate part of the block off (dont know correct termonology). Tried to take the front crankshaft pulley off, but wern't suceeding and didn't want to take the risk of breaking the pulley, so we took the entire front plate off with the crankshaft.

Once we got the crank out, we found that even all the wrist pins in the pistons were stuck! We were not expecting that! And the pistons themselves are all stuck.

That is as far as we had time to work in the block, turkey was waiting to be eaten, LOL!

But besides being stuck, things look *fairly* good. Hopefully, once everything is cleaned up, and shined up, it will be ok enough to use for a "good enough" engine.

What I mean by that is, as of now, the plan for this block is to clean everything up, mic it and see of its all within tolerances

Which by the way, where does one find the tolerances for these engines?

If things check out ok, then we are going to use the stuff to put it all back together to make a "good enough" running engine. We know enough about engine rebuilding to know that "by rights" a lot of the things may be "bad". But for a tractor, that is mainly going to do nothing but drive around and play with, it will be good enough for. Its not a high preformance engine or anything I mean.

And it will be a chalange to see if we can get it going for very little $ and have fun with it. If something goes wrong, we arn't out much because this came as "spare parts" with Frank.

Ideally, we'll turn this into a "Wrong" (not really a B block) early model B tractor. I have all the parts for the wishbone front end, minus the hubs and rims. I have all the engine parts, minus rocker arm assembly. I have a few radiators of varring condition to work with, and a B grill. Missing hood and air cleaner.

If I fix the original dented gas tank for Frank, I can take the B gas tank off him and use that for this "project power unit B"

I have the early non electric toolbox, and steering assembly.

So mainly I just need from the torque tube back. Find a parts B with a bad engine would be ideal I guess.

crazy.....

I did find the head casting number too.

*J260*

and the other casting # AM 2917-13

If this is the original head from this block, what year does this make it?

I got all but 3 of the valves freed up in the head too. The last 3 went down, but haven't poped back up yet, I have them soaking in PB blaster...

Luckely we havent found any obviously broken or obviously unnueable parts yet.

Thanks for hearing my rambling, can you tell I get excited once I get going on Orange? LOL!

Here are some pics of the power unit engine block.

What is the deal with the bracketry on the govenor? This must be a Power unit thing?

Last one, sorry about the blurry pic, its the only one I have of after we took things apart though....

I'm excited to hear any advice on plans of attack for this project. How would you approach it, what would you do?

Thanks!

-------------
Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45

Posted By: Jacob (WI,ND)
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2009 at 3:16pm

Just wanted to bump this back to the top to see of anyone can date the head from the casting numbers I found over thanksgiving holiday. I'm curious to see what year it is.

Posted By: daveingreenbay
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2009 at 8:00pm

I`ll take a stab at the casting # on the head J260. J should be Oct. J being the 10th letter of the alphabet and Oct is the 10th month. 26 is the 26th day of the month and "0" is the year, as in `50, or `60. hope that helps.

Parallelizability sclerenchyma guv stringed gamut tubule enevelope orcein lawyering. Expiring cataphoresis, thereon apodal typhlitis precontact selenious supplicate haustellate.

Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2009 at 10:42pm

Jacob, I can't help with dating the parts but was wondering about the vehicle in the background of some of your pictures. What is it and what is happening to it? Just being noisy.

-------------
"If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer"
Allis Express participant

Posted By: Jacob (WI,ND)
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 10:55am

JohnCO wrote:

Jacob, I can't help with dating the parts but was wondering about the vehicle in the background of some of your pictures. What is it and what is happening to it? Just being noisy.

Noisy is good, LOL! I'll tell anyone willing to listen about my other projects! What you see is a bit of my 1956 chevy pickup. Short stepside box 1/2 ton. It was originally a Navy truck, and I'm restoring it back to its original navy colors and lettering. It has the original numbers matching everything, and the engine is out being cooked out and machined as we speak for its rebuild. I just got word a couple of days ago that the head is cracked though, so I need to find a new one. I got one lead I'm getting a shiping quote on monday. So if anyone has a good stright 6, 235 chevy pu engine head laying around....

This is a long term project though, I've had this truck (and been torn apart) since 2002, or 03? I've got the entire frame/ chassis completely striped to bare metal, and epoxy primered and good enamel painted (all myself, with the help of a friend painting).

I could go on for hours, but since this is a AC forum, I'll quit this OT stuff, LOL! If anyone wants to know more, PM or Email, or I suppose we could start a topic in the OT forum if you all are really intersted?

Here are a couple of pics:

Here is after I began to carefully sand down the doors to find the original navy lettering (there is more, this is just the start.) It will say:

US NAVY

94-27160 ( the trucks navy registration number)

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY (in smaller letters)

Here is the 235 engine after being taken out of the truck (it ran, but needs a lot of help) And yes, that's another project in the backround. It's Great grandpas 1929 ford model A 4 door town sedan. Another REALLY back burner resto project.

Here is me after getting it back to a rolling chassis!

With cab sitting on finished chassis (new after market doors)

Me and my sister in one of the only shots before tearing it apart. (in woods, near our AC tractors, got to kep this kinda on topic...)

And the last one, the brass navy tag in the door frame of the cab.

-------------
Jacob Swanson
1920 6-12; 1925,1926 20-35 longfenders; 1925,1926 15-25's; 1927,1929 20-35 shortfenders; C; B's; IB; WC's; WD; WD45

Posted By: Jacob (WI,ND)
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 11:07am

Oh, one more thing I have to throw out there,

I know there are a lot of military men on this site, if by ANY chance any of you have pictures or information on navy vehiches (specifically 55-57 trucks, but any is good) I would be VERY intersted in seeing what you have!!!!

Finding pics of tri-five chevy PU's is like finding hens teeth! To date, we have only run across about three pics of tri-five 1/2 ton NAVY truks in there original NAVY colors/lettering.

My truck is the only one we know of that is being restored to its NAVY colors. (I know of a few other NAVY trucks that have been hot rodded, etc...)

So PLEASE, if you have any pics or info, contact me! Thank You!

mailto:Jacoba.swanson@gmail.com - Jacoba.swanson@gmail.com

Jacob Swanson

319 8th St NE Apt#1

Kenmare, ND 58746

Posted By: RyanTN
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2009 at 11:09am

Very nice! After JohnCO asked his question, I had to go back and look. I would recognize those cab corners anywhere! Dad and I have looked at, and acquired, several "Task Force" trucks over the years. My first truck was a 55 second series step side. Dad has a big window 55 step side project and a driver 55 cameo carrier. I have never seen the navy tag before. Very cool!

Posted By: ac crazy
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2009 at 2:46am

PRETTY COOL, I LIKE THE TRUCK I USED TO HAVE A WIDE WINDOW 57 STEP SIDE....I SHOULD HAVE KEPT IT AND SOLD THE WIFE....LOL. I FOUND ON MY C THAT A GOOD SUBSTITUTE FOR OIL IN THE ENGINE FOR STORAGE IS WATER ALSO....IT WAS STUCK FAST WHEN WE GOT IT.... I HAVE TWO SPARE ENGINES FOR PARTS USE AND I AM INTERESTED NOW IN SEEING WHAT THEY CAME FROM ALSO. THIS IS GOOD INFO.