HD 11 series B tracks
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Construction and other equipment
Forum Description: everything else with orange (or yellow) paint
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38683
Printed Date: 10 Nov 2024 at 3:29pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: HD 11 series B tracks
Posted By: Kcgrain
Subject: HD 11 series B tracks
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 9:07am
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I bought a 1973 HD 11 had a bad motor in it sat in a gravel pit for yrs before the owner decided to sell it, I bought it about 6 yrs ago at one time the tracks, which were just rebuilt not long before the engine spun a bearing, were free, but when we picked it up they were stuck, now its been here 6 yrs we have been pouring waste oil on them tried to move them a couple of times and once when pushing it with my friends 977 CAt they moved, but I was out of power and couldnt shove it any more so thats as far as it got. Anyways have the new engine ready to go in this crawler, dragged it to the shop yesterday, the tracks are stuck good. Does anyone have any ideas about getting these free, is there any hope they will again spin, or should they be taken off? Any help would be appreciated, thanks.
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Replies:
Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 12:44pm
Well if your afraid they will not loosen up their is the big hammer way of beating on each pad and link to work them loose.
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 1:46pm
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sorry to inform you that I have not heard of many success stories on freeing up tracks, but I certainly hope you have success. That 11 would be a good fun toy (oops, i mean working piece of equipment) Darrel
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Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 1:50pm
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Both your replies is exactly what I am afraid of, a track guy said by putting power to them they may start to go , but I am thinking my life doesnt usually work that well.
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Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 2:56pm
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I would say they will free up on their own with carefull precautions taken, as the sprocket moves forward on the track and the track is just a path to carry the weight and power by slow fwd & bk motion they should free up Rust between the pin and bushing internal clearance should slowly increase as the movement is transmitted through that joint.
As far as stress I wonder if it is more than a set of rails are exposed to when left frozen to the ground with dirt frozen into chain and exposed to 0 F cold .
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Posted By: Tad Wicks
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2011 at 9:53pm
KC, unfortunately pouring a petroleum product on something that has rusted tight is a waste of time and product, believe it or not, Water is the best thing to break rust, Now I know that I am leaving myself wide open for ridicule!!!. ( for example, a rusted tight roller chain, put in in water for a bit and start it moving it will come free, usually right away,then oil it, put it in oil first, it may never free up. I have thought a lot about a situation such as yours, several things come to mind, maybe dig a pit deep enough to cover the rails, fill it with water, drag the tractor into it and let it soak and see what happens,( or build a berm around it) if you can get them to turn a bit, then eventually they might come free. Another thing that comes to mind is maybe, pull the master pin or sacrifice a link, if you have something to handle the tracks with and let them soak for a bit in a tank of H2O, maybe it will do some good. The obvious problem, is how to get it to turn when it won't, so how to you get to the top part of the track???????? I said I thought about it a bunch, I didn't say I knew the answer( insert smiley face here) That is the best that I can come up with.
Food for thought, A friend of mine was an Operating Engineers in the Los Angles area, He told the story, while removing tracts from a Cat, they picked up the tracks in some strange manner such that it caused a piece of the rail to break away and that piece of shrapnel hit an onlooker (The boss's son) right in the heart and killed him right there , like a bullet?? Sobering thought??
Who has more fun than people on tractors?? preferably ones where the tracks turn. Tad
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Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2011 at 9:34am
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Anything is worth a try I guess, one thought I had was to remove a pad from the top and hook the steiger going in one direction, the 7580 bolted to the bottom pulling the oposite direction, and feeding it a little power from the cat and see if we could start to get it to move even slighly and than like coke said rock it back and forth maybe using water or something on the tracks as lube, even if it took 8 hrs to get it to revolve on it own would be better than beating them apart.To drag this thing into water, you dont quite understand eactly what it takes to "drag" this machine around, it does not come willingly is all I can say.
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Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2011 at 10:10am
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How much slop do the trcks have as far as wear , how badly worn are the bushings at the sprocket contact area. If worn you could have pins and bushings turned , this requires removing one set of track bolts on one side of pads then having pins and bushings pressed out and turned 180 to bring in new wear pattern.
50% track life on first side and 30/40 % on turn side can be expected.
With machine sitting you could build a box around track area , line with plastic and use a dilute sulfuric acid / water mix to soak track in to disolve rust. then move machine to soak next section in. HCL acid would also work but has a strong smell and fumes , either attacks rust.
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2011 at 10:34am
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Coke thats the problem this dozer was actully owned by the city of LaCrosse WI they put new tracks on this machine and than sold it, a guy bought it for a pond, ran it low on oil spun a bearing, he traded it to the guy with the pit,than I got it, the tracks are tighter than tight, plus with the rust settling in ,they are like a solid piece of steel, even the top, I thought of putting a portapower on the top and see if I can get some of the track to even move a little to just break the position
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Posted By: M Diesel
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2011 at 5:19pm
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New tracks (non sealed) are the worst for rusting solid. Tight clearances don't need much rust to make a nightmare.
Be very careful about forcing things. Broken housings and such are the norm for that situation. It can be every bit as bad a tracks frozen to the ground and many a final drive has succumbed in those conditions.
What Tad says is true, water works best. If nothing else then at least for the bottom section. And I'm sure he knows what it takes to drag one. :lol:
Having said all this, getting them to flex is the obvious starting point. I would loosen up the adjusters and then use a jack to push up in the middle of the upper section of rail. Pull it back down with a hefty come along or something. Repeat, evaluating your progress as you go. Proceed based on results. They may not be savable, but something tells me in this case that they might come loose eventually.
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Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2011 at 8:46pm
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Well were gonna wash these tracks off nice and clean, put some jacks on it and see what it takes to get it to bend a little, if it takes alot of pressure to get it to kink I am sure I am screwed, going to try that water though, anything will beat the cost of new or the time to beat them free.
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Posted By: Ray54
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2011 at 10:50pm
Take the track to a shop that turns pins and bushings if water doesn't get them to free up.Buff the rust off the pin and then make sure you have time to run it so they don't rust up right away again.Will not be cheap but cheaper than buying other tracks.
Ray
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Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2011 at 7:30pm
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I have a 3000psi hot water powerwasher, do you think it will help any to blast the tracks with that water, or I also have a sand blaster, would it help to drive some of the rust out with that?
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Posted By: Tad Wicks
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2011 at 9:28pm
KC, I pondered the use of high pressure water, on most tracks, there are conical washers (belleville washers) between the end of the bushing and outside link and the bushing protrudes into the outside link as well (interlocking link) to try to prevent the entrance of foreign matter, so a direct approach with a jet of water won't get there, BUTT , the only way that I think that it would be effective is if you washed the at the pins daily or twice daily for a period of time and the moisture might work it's way in, hence soaking was the preference, but it is worth a try, or put a small sprinkler under it and leave it go ?Quien sabe? I would stay waaaaaayyyyyy away from the sand blaster.
BTW, I am aware of what it takes to drag something that heavy around that is why I suggested a levy. (insert smiley face here) all in fun, good luck. But you will have to drag it sometime to try and make the tracks turn, or did I miss the part where the engine now runs?? if I did miss that, like M Diesel said, proceed with caution, something has got to give. Tad
Who has more fun than people on tractors??
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Posted By: gemdozer
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2011 at 5:46am
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I bought a 12gb ALLIS CHALMERS with HD16 undercarriage and they were freeze there for 20 years and when he ben in my yard I removed the hydrolic cylinder valve for the chaine tension and with a 20 tons hydrolic jack on track frame near the idler I lift the chaine and the idler back up and the greace came out after i remove the 20 tons hydrolic jack and do the same think near the sprocket after I make the same on the other side and I could back up 2 feets and I beginning again until the chaine ben loose and I use some lubbrifiant mixe with fuel on the links
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Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2011 at 9:57am
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Tad we dragged the dozer up to the shop Sunday, and the new engine is sitting here waiting to be installed. I have had alot of different people here that have tried to move it, one was that 977, but it slid it about 15ft and that was all it could muster, had 2 different payloaders that said they could move it, they couldnt even lift one side of the machine up, finally when we were digging the footings for a expansion on our shop the guy with the excavator, could manage to slide it but he wasnt playing with it. I bought a 745B loader on ebay a couple of years ago, and that changed the equation greatly, the 745 has the ability to pick it up like a box of leaves, but when you go to back up the loader the wheels come up, so I turned the 745 around hooked it very short to the rear hitch, and could barely get enough traction to pull it, and couldnt manuver at all, so I loaded the 4 yd bucket with gravel, and now it goes, unwillingly where the 745 takes it.Im so glad we have the toys, woops the tools to do the job.
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Posted By: Tad Wicks
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2011 at 5:58pm
KC, maybe I don't know what it takes to drag an 11 around!!! I would have thought that a 977 would have no problem moving it around especially without an engine. I don't know what a 745 is, but it must be a bit bigger than a breadbox (insert smiley face here). One thing comes to mind ( I am just thinking out loud here) before you install the engine, with all the iron and horsepower that is at your disposal you could turn the 11 on it's side and flood one whole track at a time, it would only take about an 18 inch levy and that would be about a minute's worth with a 4 yard bucket, hopefully the final seals are good. The other thing that comes to mind is you can position it so that the master pin can be accessed and removed and then unfold the tracks from the tractor, I don't think that the 745 will have any trouble making the tracks move once off the tractor and no final breakage.
And you were right the first time "toys"
Who has more fun than people on tractors, especially when there is a 745 to help out when necessary. Tad
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Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 8:27am
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Tad the 745 was Allis Chalmers 2nd from the biggest payloader its big brother 945 was huge, but the 745 is no small loader, the joke about this one is I bought it on ebay came from the airforce had 1200hrs on it, talk about goverment waste. It had alot of issues maintance wise but we got that all ironed out (demilitarize the cobble) I dont know what they teach the mechanics in the armed services, but the work on this loader was just awful, and the dealer we buy parts from for it , located in Milwaukee, said there encounter with military stuff is about the same expeirence.It has the same engine the HD11 has, and it could easily flip the 11 on its side. I do not have alot of expeirence with tracks what will the master link look like is it easily found, for me to take the tracks off and manipulate them with the loader wouldnt be that hard.
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Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 8:31am
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Its a funny thing about these "toys" the 745 was here a couple of years but because of the way we got it off the airforce it was a pain in the a** to start , move , use so it just sat around mostly unless we needed to lift something really big, last winter we went through it and got all the BS removed from it and made it functionable, now because you can jump on it and use it we use that toy all the time, and couldnt imagine not having it here, and if you want to use it plan on beating my 17yr old to it, he will knock you down racing to get it to play with, and that alone is worth having it for.
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Posted By: Tad Wicks
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2011 at 10:57am
KC, track/rails, are just a bunch of "half links", the same as you find in roller chain, except for the fact that I mentioned earlier, the bushings on most, extend into the outside link a bit, all except the masterlink, this makes it very difficult to break the track anywhere but where it is intended, it can be done, but the pad bolts have to be removed and the outside links have to be spread, usually by removing two pins, so a track press is required unless you have superman on the payroll. I don't know if AC/FA ever used a bolt together master or not, all the older stuff (pre-1980) that I worked on did not, so look for a larger pin boss or a pin with a dimple in the end, I really don't remember what the 11 has, but be prepared to do battle to get it out, the last one I did was an "11E" I think and I had to do it several times, for some reason it had front idler and bottom roller problems, they were "lifetime" bearings and they lasted just that, the lifetime of the bearing (insert smiley face here). If you are a lucky person, and sounds like you are, for the fact you have a boy who wants to participate, the master links will be on the top side of the track, you get the jist. It is going to be like hydraulic hoses, you have a 50% chance of getting them right and a 100% of getting them wrong (put a smiley face here). To remove the master pin, the easiest way I found, is to weld a pin a bit smaller in diameter (with 7018 low hydrogen) not much longer than the master pin to the master pin, don't try to hold a driving pin with pliers or whatever it just does not transfer the energy well, with two rosebuds heat up the links (do not overheat) and use the biggest sledge you have, I mean a big one, if you don't go quick the pin heats also and then you are stuck, if you have access to a track press it is highly recommended or a local equipment company that will come and push them out, it will cost you some but it is probably worth it. I hate to say it, but if there is a track shop anywhere nearby, it might be advisable to torch cut the master (outside links, that way you only have to remove two pins on each track to repair it) so you can get it apart and then let the track shop fix it, that way you don't have time and money invested in something that might be scrap iron, especially if the pins are on the bottom, the life you save might be your own or your son's.
Who has more fun than people on tractors?? as long as you don't have to work under them. Tad
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Posted By: Coke-in-MN
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2011 at 11:56am
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Depending on the age of the track it could have the 1/2 link bolted together link used on newer tarak or the older style with masterpin. Masterpins normaly have a marked end to identify them , be it a indent in end or some other such marking.
The loosening of ideler to full slack in track and then moving it up or down with loader should work some links free , then moving machine and working it more .
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Faith isn't a jump in the dark. It is a walk in the light. Faith is not guessing; it is knowing something.
"Challenges are what make life interesting; overcoming them is what makes life meaningful."
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Posted By: Kcgrain
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2011 at 12:22pm
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Coke if my HD11 and 745 wanted to be married would that be a same sex marriage???
I know I know DONT go there.
Thanks guys for all the help I appreciate it I hope by months end the engine is in, and at least running.
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