d-17 electronic ignition, ground, and regulator
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28293
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Topic: d-17 electronic ignition, ground, and regulator
Posted By: DaveKamp
Subject: d-17 electronic ignition, ground, and regulator
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 5:24pm
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Hi all! Se's gettin ratsy on me, I'm giving my D17 Series 1 a complete ignition system... and have a regulator that doesn't regulate so well. I suspect that someone has done a partial change, but not sure what, or how... mine has a 12v battery, 12v lamps, and I THINK positive ground. My plan is to change to 12v negative ground, with 12v coil, proper regulator, and Pertronix Ignitor. 1) What was the D17 ser 1 SUPPOSED to be? 2) what should i do besides change reg to a 12v neg? Do I need to swap field polarity on the generator, re-flash it, or?? (note that i'm ordering parts while waiting for my turn for back surgery... if i could get out of bed and go look, i would, but since i'm changing it anyway, it probably doesn't matter..) |
Replies:
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 5:46pm
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Since you're getting rid of the points and upgrading to electronic ignition, why not change the generator and regulator and put in an alternator? Not one of the mid80s
Delco SI style( 2 prong connector) but the newer CS series(oval 4 prong connector).The smaller diameter CS ones fit nice(have one on my D-14) and put out more than enough amps for lights and a small winch.
If you stay with the generator and go negative ground(needed for Pertronix) you will need to 'flash' the genny also reverse the coil wires AND reverse the ammeter connections.You might also look into a solidstate regulator for the genny as well.
just my thoughts...
------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 6:40pm
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Thanks Jay- I didn't wan to go to the 10si on account of it needing a bit higher idle speed to start charging... One possible solution would be to switch to a smaller belt size and machine a verry small driven sheave... but not my first choice since the stock gen will charge fine at the 17's near-standstill-idle. i tend to take advantage of the low idle when scooting trailers and machinery around. got any experience with any aftermarket solid-state regs? |
Posted By: CORY
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 6:27am
| Pertronix does have a 12 Volt Positive Ground Electronic ingition. I ordered one from Steve at B&B and boy does it make a difference. Now I just need to order one of those flamethrower coils. |
Posted By: d17brown
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 8:31am
| i think the petronix number is 1142, you can use a 1 wire alt,just rev up when you first start it and then they will charge, coil ,should be whatever pos or neg ground you have, then the same should go to points from coil |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 10:18am
its forsale. ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 10:35am
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No thanks, Ml- not interested in increasing the level of complexity on this one. If I did, i'd be partial to the EST-HEI's... use 'em in MerCruiser acd other marinized applications 'cause theyre already USCG explosion-proof (intrinsically-safe)... and advance is all in the module. For this gal, i'd even plop a magneto in'er... my B's and WCs all hand-start so well... just rather keep it simple and stock-looking, cause Dad works on it too... he gets pretty frustrated when he looks under the lid of my little boat... too many wiring looms and magic boxes. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 10:37am
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
DaveKamp wrote:Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 10:43am
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If you wire the alternator with three wires and usually a diode in the wire to the ignition circuit, it will charge at low speeds. On my 4020 I bought the smallest diameter pulley made for the alternator so with wired one wire, I only have to get it up to 1650 rpm to start charging from then on it will charge at any engine speed. If you don't flash the generator you will burn something up, generator or regulator. You should also change the battery cables so the connections match the posts which are fat and thin to remind you of the proper connections. Don't use battery cables from the wallyworld kiosk, they are too skinny. Pay the price for fat ones at NAPA. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 11:02am
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Dave, don't overlook the distributor shaft bushing. My CA was not running well a while back and since it was time for points, I put the Pertronix in. Didn't seem to help much due to the sloppy dist. With a new dist and the pertronix with the flamethrower coil, it will idle as slow as a JD. Starts and runs better than it ever has. I opened my plug gaps to .045 too.
That setup Mitch has isn't as complicated as it might look. That is an HEI dist. The 4cyl application never had the coil in the cap like the V8's did. It might be overkill for a stocker, but it will work quite well. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 11:53am
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Mitch, I Might have a 470 around, but i wouldn't sell it to you if I did... i'd just give it to you. You need a complete kit, just powerhead, outdrive, or certain parts? Tnx es 73 for the tips, Gerald... you mean 1650rpm at the alternator shaaft, yes? I always go with serious battery cables. prepackaged repacements usually constitute higer value in packaging, than contents, and the "universal" terminals usually aren't. Tnx for the bushing note, Bri- good point (PUNNY!)... After surgery (Tuesday!!) I'll lift that rascal out. was planning on giving it a thorough goin-through anyway, advance weights haven't been sticking, but the way they look, they SHOULD. The HEI isn't in any way complicated or daunting to me- I reconfigured a GM 7747 ECU to force-feed a well-built marinized Chevy 250 (now 261ish) in my 17' Sea-Ray ski boat... made my own ALDL interface, burned my own prom, and hacked the park/neutral (emmissions) maps so the engine would shift (Alpa One SS with 1.34 gears) and idle at 650 while still running submerged exhaust. Cam is pretty frumpy for submerged... 282 adv.dur @ .512" lift... so when she's not up on plane, the MAP signal is darned-near nonexistant. Great boat, but I built it knowing that the cost and complexity would be it's Achilles Heel. But for tractors, I like brute simplicity and uncluttered compartments. I like magnetos and hand cranks on my emergency generators, too... lightning- and dead-battery-proof. |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2011 at 11:58am
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I am just wanting a long block engine may be to hook to a wc tranny ------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Posted By: Steve in NJ
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2011 at 8:03am
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Dave,
A lot of good info here fromt he guys. As Gerald said, if you wire your Tractor up with an SI Alternator, as long as you wire it as a 3 wire unit, there's no reason to run high rpms. The Alternator immediately starts in the charging mode when the engine starts. Leave the one wire Alternators to the Automobiles. Excellent info from Brian bout' the Distributors. All the D17 Distributors I've rebuilt so far were pretty much toast and needed a complete overhaul. Also be aware- whatever you decide to do for an ignition, make sure you purchase the correct E.I. for your application! Pertronix offers a 12V Positive Ground, as well as a 12V Negative ground unit. If you move to an Alternator, you want to move to the Negative ground kit. The Series I D17 was originally 6V Positive ground to answer your question. Also make sure you use the correct ohm coil for 12V. Watch with "universal" 12V coils. Most standard 12V coils are 1.5 ohm. Good for 6 & * cylinder engines. If using the 4 cylinder engine, you need to establish 2.7-3.3 ohms of resistance in the Ignition circuit in order for the engine to run correctly. Check your coil with an ohm meter to see what the coil is rated at. If its not between 2.7-3.3 ohms, an internal resisted 3 ohm coil at the Auto Parts store will put you right in the ballpark. If you need an E.I. or anything electrical for your swap, we have it all in stock. Drop us a line if interested. Be happy to help you out with any info to. That doesn't cost a dime...
mailto:Steve@B&B - Steve@B&B
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Posted By: Brian G. NY
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2011 at 10:04am
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Steve, I thought all of the D-17s were 12V Positive ground.
I thought only the very early D-10s, D-12s and D-14s were 6 volt.
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Posted By: Bill Long
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2011 at 10:52am
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Very good information. However, don't forget SteveNJ, he is our resident expert on all things electrical for Allis Chalmers.
Good Luck!
Bill long
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Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2011 at 3:01pm
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Thanks for jumping in, Steve... After looking extensively, I was under the impression that the 17 was 12-volt positive ground all around... mine was fitted with 12v components, but anything could've happened prior to me getting it. Any idea what the 'break over' point would've been? Unfortunately, I already ordered a Pertronix, otherwise I wouldve had you set me up... the one I got is neg, so I'll be swappin ammeter leads. I intended to go neg-ground anyway, for accessory reasons. Generator still works great, but reg isn't regulating... on my DVOM, I saw 13.6 at idle, 18.5 at full gov... I've run it knowing the condition for almost 2 years now, just regulate it 'manually' by keepin' rpms down, and running headlamps when much above idle... intended to go through the reg at same time as ignition upgrades, so voltages and polarities all matched. Is there a solid-state reg that'd work for this setup in 12v neg? |