CA surging
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24438
Printed Date: 24 Feb 2025 at 12:43am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: CA surging
Posted By: Leon B MO
Subject: CA surging
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 6:12am
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I've been having trouble with a CA for a long time, just never could get it to run or start right, surging. I have had the carb off many times, cleaned, inspected and still not right. I installed a carb off a running tractor, starts fine but while pushing snow yesterday, it would constantly surge. It also did this with the other carb. Not just a little either, under a light load the throttle rod would travel from idle to wide open. Under heavy load it would plain out. I do have the surge spring on, tried it with and without, no change. The spring is pulling almost straight down on the throttle rod. For now I added washers behind keeper on rod to make it just a bit snug and give it a little resistance. I just couldn't keep pushing the way it was. Where do I start, is it a govenor problem? What do I look for in there? It seems like the throttle linkage is very easy to move. Any input would be helpfull.
Thanks
Leon B MO ------------- Uncle always said "Fill the back of the shovel and the front will take care of itself". |
Replies:
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 6:18am
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The surge spring should be in line with the governor rod, at least that's how mine has always been. Do you have an adjustable carb or fixed main jet? If it were running lean that would make it surge. Check for vacuum leaks with some spray carb cleaner around the manifold. Make sure your air cleaner isn't full of ice. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Leon B MO
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 6:22am
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It was sitting in the shop the whole day before so it can't be ice in the tank or breather. I tried running the spring longways with the rod and that was worse. ------------- Uncle always said "Fill the back of the shovel and the front will take care of itself". |
Posted By: BWinMO
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 6:36am
| I think the spring is to be hooked on the top side of the rod to a manifold bolt straight above the hole in the rod. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 6:40am
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The spring should be pulling up. It has to be the right spring. Not just anything will work, although I've used a different spring that I had on hand, it has to be very light. If you have the right spring it should hook from a tiny hole in the rod up to one of the manifold studs. I forget which stud but a little trial and error should find the right one. After that check your carb and fuel lines and tank for blockage. Check for binding linkage. Everything should move freely (I guess you said it did). When you get it figured out remember to synchronize the governor to the carb. Get a book to make sure all the linkage from your throttle lever right on down to the carb is all set right. It's got to be something simple. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Leon B MO
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 6:55am
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It is a factory spring, I bought it after the surging started some time ago. No blockage, it runs great under load, surges under light load. I will try to mount the spring back on the manifold stud. I set the linkage acording to the service manual. What do you mean by synchronize the gov to the carb? ------------- Uncle always said "Fill the back of the shovel and the front will take care of itself". |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 7:34am
Here's a link about the WD,WD45, D17. I describe it in this thread. About the same as for a C. The governor arm may be shorter so the tool might have to be shorter than what I said. Anyway just give this a read. http://www.allischalmers.com/new/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17708&KW=syncronize+carb&PID=131889&title=wd45-d17-dyno#131889 - http://www.allischalmers.com/new/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17708&KW=syncronize+carb&PID=131889&title=wd45-d17-dyno#131889 ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Leon B MO wrote:Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 9:02am
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The cross over arm is out of adjustment. You can put 10 surge springs on it and it will still surge if the cross over arm is not pushing the the butterfly closed against the butterfly stop screw at idle. It needs about 1/8 inch pressure. You have to bend the arm to adjust it.
The instructions call for adjusting at wide open to get the 1/8 inch offset. With the throttle link and the cross over length not adjustable I tell people to adjust at idle which is the same deal with the exception doing at wide open does not give you the total understanding of the reason for the 1/8inch connection offset. That being to have the governor place pressure, at idle, to hold the throttle butterfly closed tight against the stop screw. A governor is an RPM limiter or evener not an accelerator.
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Posted By: mnoonan-NEWI
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 9:09am
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Leon, I have attached the following pictures of the surge spring for your visual. I'm not sure if they are for a B, C or CA or all of them.    ------------- AC CA, Ferguson TO-20, Ford NAA, M-M BG, AC #3 Mower, SC Plow, PH Digger, AC 720's with Ark 700 loader & Brantly Backhoe, "Mini B" w/flathead Ford V8 |
Posted By: GregLawlerMinn
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 10:36am
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mnoonan's pics are correct for a CA. Dick L's advice on the cross arm is also right on. The gap is to be between the throttle shaft and cross over shaft on the front of the engine. Dis-engage them, move your throttle to the wide open position, manually pull the carb shaft to the wide open position; if you don't have the 1/8" gap you need to bend the crossover arm to obtain it.
Adjust you cross arm with the 1/8" gap at Wide Open throttle and install the anti-surge spring correctly and you should loose the surging problem. In fact, I have had several CA's that were missing the anti-surge spring and they ran good...although, I did install new springs to make sure they continued to do so. ------------- What this country needs is more unemployed politicians-and lawyers. Currently have: 1 D14 and a D15S2. With new owners: 2Bs,9CAs,1WD,2 D12s,5D14s,3D15S2s, 2D17SIVs,D17D,1D19D;1 Unstyled WC |
Posted By: Leon B MO
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 11:53am
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That is the spring I have and that is where I have it now. I have two other CA's and neither of them have this spring. I remember now about the crossover rod needing to be bent to get the proper length, that's one thing I have not checked. I hope you guys are onto something. I'm gonna give it a try and let ya know. Thanks.
Leon B MO ------------- Uncle always said "Fill the back of the shovel and the front will take care of itself". |
Posted By: countryguy828
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 2:34pm
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You guys are giving me hope. My CA after rebuild and scavagening parts from all over, surges something awful! I will have to keep this in mind till spring when I bring it home from winter storage.
Dave
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Posted By: Leon B MO
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 2:51pm
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Crossover rod is ajusted according to the book, carb rod is about 1/8" to short at full throttle, so there is always a little pull on the throttle rod. Factory surge spring is on just like mnoonan's picture. I took the govenor cover off and didn't see anything wrong. Started it back up and it tried to surge a little bit just sitting in the shop, I will take it out for a test run tommorrow. Still open for suggestions.
Thanks
Leon B MO ------------- Uncle always said "Fill the back of the shovel and the front will take care of itself". |
Posted By: Burgie
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 3:05pm
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Leon, I had that happen to the little pink tractor. It was surging bad but I could hear a sucking noise. I put a new throttle shaft seal in and have not had anymore problems. ------------- "Burgie" |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 4:57pm
| You have the gap the wrong way. That is why I say set it at idle. Same distance so you don't get a different setting. You need pressure holding the throttle butterfly closed not holding it open. Again the governor holds the throttle closed. The throttle lever pulls on the spring to over come the the governor. Setting it at wide open is fine if you understand which side the gap is on and (why.) |
Posted By: Leon B MO
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 6:53pm
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Dick L, I did have the gap the other way earlier today, it ran the same. I couldn't bend the rod back towards the rad so that's why I went ahead and pulled the gov cover, bent the rod in the opposite direction. My CA service book said to make the carb rod 1/16 to long. The I T book I have said to make the rod 1/16 to short. So I thought I'd try both ways and neither seems to help. I will also try to find any vacuum leaks, I don't have any carb cleaner, what's the next best thing to spray on and around the intake and carb? Sorry if this is getting menotinous.
Leon B MO ------------- Uncle always said "Fill the back of the shovel and the front will take care of itself". |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 8:21pm
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Propane is a good leak checker. Unlit from a torch. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2011 at 8:25pm
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Don't worry about going over it a bunch. It will fall into place when you get the principle. The governor weights spinning forces the cross over arm back toward the block/head. that pushes the throttle lever back against the stop screw that sets the idle speed. When the throttle lever is set to idle the butterfly is pushed closed manually. If it is not held back by the governor when you start to move the throttled hand lever the butterfly will open farther than you want and the RPM's will be higher than wanted. The governor is suppose to try to hold the butterfly closed at any time the engine is running. When you push the hand throttle lever forward it tightens the governor spring to overcome the governor trying to keep the engine from speeding up. Without enough governor pressure or enough spring tension against the governor it has to hunt for the proper tension and can't find it and as a result the RPM's go up and down. Or when you move the hand throttle lever just a bit to remove the manual closing of the butterfly it will open up and stay open at a high RPM. It depends in how far it is out of adjustment. I used to set my puller to surge slightly until the tractor was under load. If you get to much misalignment pressure in the linkage you then loose high end RPM's. After you get the answer to the whys that make things work it becomes much easier. |
Posted By: Leon B MO
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2011 at 4:10pm
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Well I tried again today, to no avail. The throttle linkage is set according to the manual from the quadrant to the carb, factory surge spring in place and slight pressure from the crossover lever holding the butterfly closed. Used my propane torch to look for intake leaks around manifold and carb, couldn't hear any change in rpm's. Surge spring off or on, no difference, crossover rod bent toward carb or bent toward rad, no difference. I know it's wrong but here is what I did and it runs better than it ever has. On the crossover end of the carb rod, after putting the carb rod through the hole I placed one 1/4" flat washer, one 1/4" lock washer, then one more 1/4" flat washer. I had to really push to get the small hairpin through the hole. This puts just a little resistance on the linkage in both directions. Maybe the throttle shaft in the carb should have a tighter seal and more resistance. Maybe there is something wrong inside the gov. Anyway, I can't figure it out. Thanks for the help, I'm still willing to try other suggestions but for now it's starting and running great.
Leon B MO ------------- Uncle always said "Fill the back of the shovel and the front will take care of itself". |
Posted By: RSponenberg
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2011 at 7:47pm
| Sucking air on the throttle shaft seal !!!!! |
Posted By: Steve M C/IL
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2011 at 11:14pm
| which means sucking dirt too |
Posted By: GregLawlerMinn
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2011 at 8:10am
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propane, brake cleaner...just about any flammable aerosol works to check for intake leaks; I like propane. You didn't mention whether or not if you have a weight inside the govenor spring; it is necessary for the govenor to work correctly, and I have seen a few where it was missing. ------------- What this country needs is more unemployed politicians-and lawyers. Currently have: 1 D14 and a D15S2. With new owners: 2Bs,9CAs,1WD,2 D12s,5D14s,3D15S2s, 2D17SIVs,D17D,1D19D;1 Unstyled WC |