Whats wrong with buda 262 engines
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Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22397
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Topic: Whats wrong with buda 262 engines
Posted By: Denis in MI
Subject: Whats wrong with buda 262 engines
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 11:38am
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When ever I hear people talk about buda 262 engines, specifically diesels like in the D-17 I hear about problems mostly involving cylinder heads are these engines as bad as their reputation or are they reliable, I have a one that is siezed up after a head gasket failure in a D-17 and wonder if it is worth repairing or if it will fail shortly after I throw a ton of money at it or if I should look into a engine swap, I want to make it useable and it seems from all the bad news about these engines I would be further ahead to spend money putting in a different engine. It just seems like if these engines were so terrible they would all be in the scrap yard by now.
Thanks for any opinions on this,
Denis ------------- 1938 B, 1945 B, 1941 IB, 1949 C, 2 1938 WCs, 3 1950 WDs, 1951 WD, 2 1955 WD45, 1957 D-14 |
Replies:
Posted By: Matt MN
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 12:10pm
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I am not sure but I believe that a 262 in a d17 is not a BUDA engine but an Allis made engine?
I believe that ledge that holds the sleeve in place erodes away and the sleeve sinks into the block and that is why some of them have leaking head gaskets, remember these are 50 year old tractors that probably have not had the proper care that should have been given to them. ------------- Unless your are the lead horse the scenery never changes!! |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 12:28pm
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Aren't shims to go under the flange on the sleeves standard parts to set the sleeve protrusion into the head gasket? Gerald J. |
Posted By: Russ-neia
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 12:52pm
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A lot of the issues with these engines had to do with improper warm-up and cool-down. For many folks, this (WD-45, D-17) was the first diesel engine they had ever operated. If it was put under load before getting to operating temp or shut down too quickly when finished working, it would lead to uneven head temperatures and head warping, which leads to other problems. Allis and Buda had some learning to do, to as did all diesel engine makers which is why later engines are so much more reliable and forgiving. ------------- The innovators offer what others will imitate. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 1:02pm
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According to the long time A-C dealer in Indianola Ia, the bottom end of the Buda engines were pretty much bullet proof. It's safe to say the 262 is a Buda engine since all A-C did was change the bore and stroke of the 230 engine Buda was producing at the time A-C purchased Buda. Care has a huge effect on other parts such as proper cooling system maintenance and not lugging. The flange on the sleeves could have been designed wider to prevent sleeve sinking. I'm told that shims can be made to make up for sunken sleeves. A-C's fix was to provide a special tool to re cut the bores deeper and install sleeves with .020 thicker flanges on them. The owner who properly warmed the engine up before going to work and properly cooling it down before shutting it down typically didn't have head gasket issues. Probably the warm up and shut down were the biggest down falls for a farmer who was shall we say very thrifty. Cooling system technology has improved by leaps and bounds since these engines were designed. Today's additives specifically designed for diesel engines to keep corrosion at a bare minimum, if they had been available when these engines were new, probably would have improved the reputation these engines have today. My opinion is if you decide to fix one, DON'T cut any corners on the block. Have your counter bores recut and block surfaced. Have your head surfaced too. Use a machine shop familiar with the Lanova style head. If the valve seats are worn/ground too deep in the head, it looses some compression and can affect cold starting.
Denis, good luck in what ever you decide. You might even want to talk with Bill at Sandy Lake. Much of what I know about these engines comes from him. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Bruce Nelson
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 1:34pm
| The problems I experienced while working as a mechanic at a dealer were the sleeve standout, the head and the head gasket. As discussed, the ledge in the block where the sleeves were supported, would erode and the sleeves would sink. When this happened, the head gasket would leak and if that continued, the engine would consume coolant, overheat easily and sometimes crack from this. It was common to remove a head and see a dozen or more cracks in the head. Some were not leakers and some may have been a result of improper warm up and cool down as discussed on an earlier post. But the killer in this engine was the block sleeve ledge erosion. The ledge in these engines was very narrow. The block would erode changing the flat ledge to a tapered sloping shape. There were no shims available and I doubt that would have been an option with the condition of the damaged block. To fix this problem, Allis Chalmers produced a replacement sleeve that was .020" oversize, with a thicker, taller flange. The counterbores (ledges) in the block had to be recut with a counterbore tool or a boring bar. Another repair that I have done very successfully is to deck the block, recut the counterbores to the proper depth and remove the same amount of material (removed from the deck) from top of the pistons. Once the sleeves are sitting on a good foundation, the head gasket takes care of its self. We did replace a number of blocks back then as requested by the customer. We repaired more in the later years (and I am still doing it). One other problem I used to see was the threads in the block for the headbolts would strip. I don't know if that was from having the head off multiple times, trying to make it seal, or if the leaking gaskets would erode the block threads. I remember retorqing more than one of these heads and having the last bolt strip the threads. |
Posted By: Bruce Nelson
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 1:37pm
| I hadn't seen Brian's post before I wrote mine, didn't mean to repeat. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2010 at 2:45pm
| The really sad thing about the 262 story is that when A-C bought the Buda company, that engine didn't have sleeves !! it was a bored block and had no sleeve protrusion issues. It was re-designed by A-C engineers so they could still claim to have "wet" sleeves like all the gasoline engines. As a gasoline version, the inadequate sleeve lip caused no problems. It was when it was dieseled ( and later turbocharged..boy that was dumb) that the problems surfaced. Worn out head bolt holes could be attributed to too many disassemblies to fix a blown head gasket and too high of head bolt torque trying to keep another gasket failure from occuring. |
Posted By: Nathan (SD)
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 1:34am
| The problem I faced was spending $5000+ to end up with a engine that is outdated by 70 years. These engines were antique technology by the time AC acquired them. I could buy alot of modern, more fuel effecient hp for the same money. |
Posted By: B26240
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 7:18am
| I know a fella said he spent 7k to get everything fixed on one of those including injection pump rebuild. |
Posted By: darrel in ND
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 7:22am
| A friend of mine had a D 17 diesel, and loved it. Said it ran like a champ and was unbelievably fuel efficient. Traded it off, and has regretted doing that, and I have regretted not buying it after he traded it in. Darrel |
Posted By: GregLawlerMinn
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 9:20am
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I have a good running diesel in my D17; altho it swallowed a valve seat last spring and wrecked the #4 piston. A new sleeve/piston (just 1), gasket set and head rebuild was nearly $1,000. It's back together now and runs like a kitten. Suspect that those that have problems were not used/maintained right. One that is in good condition is a sweet engine with lots of power and easy on fuel. That said, $3,000 to rebuild an engine (without touching the injectors or fuel pump) in a $2,500 (+/-) tractor would cause me to investigate other options. ------------- What this country needs is more unemployed politicians-and lawyers. Currently have: 1 D14 and a D15S2. With new owners: 2Bs,9CAs,1WD,2 D12s,5D14s,3D15S2s, 2D17SIVs,D17D,1D19D;1 Unstyled WC |
Posted By: ac45
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 12:08pm
| Dr allis , weren't some of the Budas in the Cockshutts and co ops parent bore ( no sleeve engines? |
Posted By: mlpankey
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 12:13pm
------------- people if they don't already know it you can't tell them. quote yogi berra |
Bruce Nelson wrote:Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 12:54pm
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Someone told me to have $5K available to build one. I can see that being about right if the head and injection pump need attention. I'm lucky that all my head needed was a quick touch up on the valves and resurfaced. I've probably got $3000 in the engine with out touching the fuel system. Almost 1/3 of that is foundation... ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 1:21pm
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The old mechanics at Peterson Implement where I worked once (gone now) said they had a customer who bought 2 diesel 17s and had a lot of trouble and sunken sleeves. He traded them in and the next customer that bought them (I think he bought both too) had no trouble at all. He let them idle while he did the cattle chores every time before he shut them off. Ran them in cold MN winters too. Let them cool off for a long time and that will certainly help. I would recommend that even for much newer tractors too. Just better for them. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: Steve M C/IL
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 1:36pm
| Yup. Back in that time,you hopped on fired up and run down the lane and dove off in the field where you resumed plowing from the day before.Buzzed back in for dinner and dropped the plow and bailed off. ETC.They were used to gassers and you could get away with it.That's why some were nothing but trouble and others were not. BTW the flange on the liners is VERY NERROW! |
Posted By: Lester
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2010 at 5:26pm
| Fifteen years ago you couldn't hardly give away a buda diesel, now everyone wants a 45 or 17 diesel to play with and they wonder why they have so much trouble. I pull a 45 diesel that has a 1966 262 turbo out of a CII, that has been turned up and so far I have had no trouble with it. I also use it to farm with. But, of course the best engine is the diesel 273 buda that was put in the 50 Cockshutts, which has no sleeves, so consequently a lot less worry of the sleeves dropping. I just put a turbo back on my 50 diesel Cockshutt and am going to pull it some next year. The only other non sleeve engine is the 182, that was never put in a tractor, just in industrial use 4 cylinder version. |
Posted By: Denis in MI
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 9:45am
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So if my engine needs major work on the block is their another allis engine that would bolt in, and give the same or maybe a little more power. A couple of guys from the local tractor club were trying to convince me to swap in a 5.9 cummins and just leave off the turbo or turn the pump down but I fear that the drivetrain would self destruct since I want to use the tractor not just parade it around.
Thanks for all the info and oppinions so far,
Denis ------------- 1938 B, 1945 B, 1941 IB, 1949 C, 2 1938 WCs, 3 1950 WDs, 1951 WD, 2 1955 WD45, 1957 D-14 |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 9:52am
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Four cylinder Cummins might be a better fit. Used to be common in bread trucks. Gerald J. |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 11:38am
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What about a 301? Probably won't have room for a turbo under the hood. That bread truck Cummins sounds like a good idea. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Hurst
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2010 at 12:46pm
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I think a 200 ci 433 engine would be a better replacement for a D262 in a D17, but I am not sure how the length issue would work. The 301 seems like a big engine for the D17. If it's a series 4, shouldn't an adapter plate from a 180 or 185 bolt up to the rear of the 433. Not sure what you'd do about the front plate. Hurst ------------- 1979 Allis Chalmers 7000 5800 Hours |
Posted By: Mottwelding
Date Posted: 18 May 2016 at 3:51pm
| Im also interested in alternate engines, does anyone have any ideas on that, preferable something that is not a lot of rework. |
Posted By: BrianC
Date Posted: 18 May 2016 at 4:07pm
| Would a 170/175's diesel fit? |
Posted By: D17JIM2
Date Posted: 18 May 2016 at 5:05pm
| When I was home and we were farming with 2 gas wd45's our neighbor bought 2 wd45 diesels. He said one was a great tractor and the other had all the problems you have talked about. He warmed them up and cooled them down but he got rid of the one for a gas 45. These were 1956 years I believe. |
Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 18 May 2016 at 9:14pm
170 and 175s were Perkins diesels. The steering shaft gets in the way of any other engine fitting into the chassis. Like I said in another post - lots of surgery. ------------- '49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080 |
Posted By: HD6GTOM
Date Posted: 18 May 2016 at 11:33pm
| I purchased a series 4 from Allen reed at R and R equipment in Indianola Iowa over 30 years ago. The head gasket rotted out at the back of the engine. It started pumping water out the very back of the engine. Since it was using some oil I had Joe Drake overhaul it. We found some small cracks in the head between the valves. I had the head fixed, put in new sleeves, pistons, valves, bearings, clutch package, a few other small items were addressed. Cost was around 3600.00. That included fixing a bearing in the tranny that was noisy. Did not need any block work. The last time it was dynoed, I was told it was putting out 70 HP. I would not trade it for 2 gassers. |
Posted By: j.w.freck
Date Posted: 19 May 2016 at 6:03pm
| USE AND ABUSE,key words in the 45 diesel problems,crank up hook up and when you get to the end of the field shut it down,no never,heat it up and cool it down,properly.that was thinking from the gas powered days,wont work for a diesel..... |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 19 May 2016 at 6:34pm
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Well if you don't mind the gas the 226 that was in the d17 is a great work horse. I have one of them the problem is it burns about 3.5 gallons an hour under heavy load. I wonder about putting a deutz f4l912 i think that is the right number it is the 4 cylinder 912 serries into a d17. It would be about 70 hp without a turbo at the right motor speeds and is air cooled which means no radiator or coolant to freeze in the winter. With the hot air system those deutz motors will start in the dead of winter at 20 below and are tuff as nails. Had one as a kid in a crap Same tractor but that motor was amazing. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 19 May 2016 at 8:36pm
A 5.9 wouldn't hurt the drivetrain if you only pulled the normal D17 implements at normal speeds. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: Dan73
Date Posted: 19 May 2016 at 8:40pm
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But Mark I don't do that with my stock d17 226 gas... I think a bigger motor is just too much temptation to break something pushing it... After all last summer I pulled a JD 930 disc bine mower conditioner behind my d17. I think that might have been a little too big for her but she just chugged along and got the job done... |
Posted By: corbinstein
Date Posted: 20 May 2016 at 6:46am
| The Cummins 4 cyl is a 4BT engine. |