Allis Chalmers B Hydraulic Questions
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Category: Allis Chalmers
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URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21738
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Topic: Allis Chalmers B Hydraulic Questions
Posted By: yochujr
Subject: Allis Chalmers B Hydraulic Questions
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 6:51pm
| I just purchased my first tractor tonight and noticed an issue with the hydraulics. When I engage the pto, the 3 point raises but the lever that controls the up and down of the 3 points appears to be frozen so I can't lower it without disengaging the hydraulics. On the pump, it looks like a throttle body on a carb and it will not move. Anyone have any ideas what it could be and if it's super expensive to fix? Thanks in advance. |
Replies:
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 7:24pm
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There is really not too much to the whole pump unit. Get a manual, disassemble and clean things and you may need to replace a couple small ball bearings used as check valves. The cylinders should not leak down when the PTO is turned off, that is why I believe you might need to go through the pump. The valve may just be stuck, but what makes things stick is the watered down dirty crud built up inside these things in 50-70 years. Just remove the pump, clean it up and put it on a bench with a nice light colored rag under it. A lip on your bench and a clean floor will help you keep from loosing springs and balls as you remove them, but they can be replaced and should be if there is any pitting on the ball or broken springs. Hope this helps.
------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 7:36pm
| Thank you. So I should be able to pull the pump off the side and get it freed up where it will rotate? Will anything shoot out on me? Thanks for the help, I'm wondering if I should return the tractor or not. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 7:44pm
|
There is no rotating in the pump. There are cam lobes on the output from the transmission and there are plungers in the pump. Each plunger pushes oil past a spring loaded ball and you have pressure. When you pull the pump off the tractor, nothing will "shoot out". It might be just pumping some diesel fuel through it will flush things out enough to work properly. Take the pump off and you will see the inlet line hanging down. Submerge that in some diesel fuel and start pumping the plungers one at a time. Once you have diesel pumped through it, see if you can operate the valve.If it works easier for you, turn the pump uoside down and fill the suction tube with diesel fuel before pumping by hand. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 7:47pm
Here's a picture (hopefully, if I get it to work.) The lever attached to the seat will not move. It's like the small rotating part that it attaches to is frozen. If it just needs cleaned, hopefully it's not a huge deal. If it's something  expensive, I've got a problem.
|
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 7:49pm
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Disconnect the rod coming up from the hydraulic unit to make sure the handle isn't froze to the seat bracket.
------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 7:57pm
| No, the handle wiggles around and I can move it from side to side. |
Posted By: pumpkin man
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 8:16pm
| try spraying it [that thing you say looks like a valve body] pent. oil that should be free mite be rusted up or to much paint on it does it look like its bent check the linkeag all of its got to be free moving |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 8:30pm
| Thank you a ton for your help. I will go soak it with penetrating oil tonight and check it tomorrow. I have checked and all of the linkages themselves are free but I guess I just can't figure out what actuates the pump or valve body itself. If it doesn't work, I'll try to take a few better pictures and maybe that will help. I'm going to get a manual but it seems like no reason to try to return the tractor. Thanks again for you help and I might need more in the very near future! |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 8:43pm
|
there are two sheetmetal circles about 3 inches in diameter mounted on the pump c enter shaft. When you pull the lever, it rotates one of the circles and the other is spring loaded to the first. when you let go of the lever, the spring pops the one circle back to neutral so it stops raising. when you push down to lower, the same happens. Let go of the lever and the circle pops back to neutral... soak the outside with a PB blaster and then do a little prying or rotate with vice grips. Tap in the circles lightly to shock load and break up any rust.. The center shaft you are rotating is pushing on a piston that lets oil go to "up" or "down"... the pump is actually a 2 piston pump that runs off a cam shaft coming from the motor- transmission top shaft. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 8:57pm
| Those are the parts that I thought should rotate and they don't. I soaked them and I'll try to pry on them and see what happens. If I need to pull the whole assembly, do I just take out the 4 bolts and it pulls out or do I need to disconnect something on the inside of the transmission? Those circle plates you are talking about do not appear to move whatsoever but I will try to break them loose tomorrow. |
Posted By: Bill Long
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 9:54pm
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Before you pull the pump you may want to drain the oil from a plug on the bottom of the PTO. If you have a gasket with a dam build in it will hold the balance of the oil in the transmission rear end area and save the draining of all the rear end transmission oil.
The oil is filled from a plug on the left of the transmission case looking forward.
Pay close attention to what is said above. It is excellently stated as to the problems you may be having.
Thanks for taking such good care of my favorate.
Let us know how it goes. Don't forget to get a manual or a shop manual that will show the breakdown of the hyd pump and pto.
Good Luck!
Bill Long
|
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 10:10pm
|
Thank you both. Being brand new at this, I'm sure I will have more questions but I'm hoping to get it fixed and working because I have a nice blade for it and snows getting close! Thanks again and it's awesome to find a forum with such great people. As for the fluid, hopefully the manual will tell me what I need and how to change it all. It sat outside for quite some time and was not used much while he had it so I would say I need to drain every bit of fluid, oil and grease and change everything. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 10:12pm
| Do you guys know any good websites to order parts from? I know it is in serious need of brakes as well but my main concern for now is a place to find parts for the hydraulic pump if they're needed and haven't had any luck. |
Posted By: WC7610
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 11:40pm
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Check out the parts section of this website. Several good suppliers supporting this website! ------------- Thanks Most Bad Government has grown out of Too Much Government- Thomas Jefferson |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2010 at 11:49pm
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Ha, I was so worried about finding out what was going on, I completely missed the parts section. Thanks! Here are some pics of the new purchase. I got it delivered and with the blade for 1500 so I don't think it was too bad.   |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 6:41am
|
That's a nice clean,well cared for B ! You 'dun good'.Just keep her full of gas, check the oil and have FUN !! ------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 8:22am
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If you get very much snow you may want some chains for the rear wheels. Have fun with your new toy, Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 8:36am
|
If you cant get the circular plates loose, then you will probalby need to remove the pump. The 4 bolts just take out, then wiggle out the pump. YOu will see two plungers with rollers at the end. Inside the PTO case there are two cams that rotatae and the rollers run on them and push the two pistons in and out. YOU do have to drain the oil first. There are three 1/2 inch plugs on the bottom of the trans, differential, and PTO housing. You will get 2 gallons total drain. YOu need some thin weight oil like hytrans, universal tractor fluid, or 20 wt motor oil for refill. --- With the pump off, you might be able to set in a gallon can of penetrant and let it soak, or get a better grab on the circular parts. You pump internal obviously works since the 3 point goes up. I would not tear it appart untill i got the circular discs losses. You may not have to disassemble.--- THe discs i believe are pinned on with a small roll pin. Maybe take the pin out and take the discs off and wire brush, then turn the shaft by vice grip to test. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 8:40am
|
For your information, your B is a little bit "special". Most Bs have a wishbone front alxe and the rear hubs press on a splined shaft. A few had a straight front axle that has adjustable width. To go with that the rear alxes were changed to a 5 bolt on pattern like an automobile rim... Thats what you got.. nice unit. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: MBolton
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 8:40am
| Jack up or run the right rear tire up on a couple of blocks and you'll loose less oil and make it a bit easyer to get at the bolts holding the pump on. I use hytran but origional recommendation was 20 wt. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 8:44am
|
YOur tractor also has a distributor and coil instead of a magnito. IF it was built in late 50s, that might be original. IF it was build earlier, then it was retrofit. Post your serial number sometime, its by the shift lever....Foot step on the other side is not original, looks good from this angle.. how about another photo sometime of the step ? ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 10:05am
|
Yes, I will definitely put some more pictures on here. I pulled the serial number last night and it is B120223 so I figured it to be a 1952. As for the distributor, it has a 12v alternator on the other side so I just figured the thing has been switched from 6v. I know a little bit more about 8ns and when I was looking at them I noticed that was very common so I assumed the same for the or any other 12v so it was easier to start. |
Posted By: George Davenport
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 3:13pm
| I've got a 52 B and I would not take 1500 for it. I think you got a very good purchase. Yours looks better than mine also. I know you will enjoy it in many ways. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 8:57pm
|
Ok, I've got an update. I sprayed the two outside sheetmetal plates/discs last night with penetrating oil and tonight I was able to break it free by tapping it lightly with a hammer and get the entire lever and entire assembly to rotate. I can also see the center shaft of the pump rotating. Now, when I start the tractor up and engage the pto, the 3-point raises but I still cannot get it to lower, even with weight on it. Any ideas now? I'm a little limited on space during the winter to tear it apart and I don't want to do it outside unless I can get it back up and running pretty quickly. Also, is there a rebuild kit available that's got all of the valves, balls, seats etc. available if this is the problem? I've been having trouble finding anything as far as hydraulic parts for this tractor, even on this sight unless I've completely missed it. As I said before, this is all brand new but your words of wisdom have already started to build my confidence enough to dig into it. Thanks again for all the great help. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 9:56pm
Her's a picture of the step that you requested.
|
steve(ill) wrote:Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 9:58pm
This is interesting. I noticed that the front was adjustable but just assumed that it was somewhat standard for that year. I would be interested in learning a little more about it. |
Posted By: Chalmersbob
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 10:16pm
| You said that you got the discs to rotate. They should be seperated to rotate individually, with the springs creating friction and still allowing them to slip. Bob |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 10:27pm
| Yes, they do move separately now. |
Posted By: pumpkin man
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 10:54pm
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in your last pict. it shows a return hose hook to the filler hole what type hdly. cly is on that tractor could be your prob. show more pict. of the pump & cly. hook up looks like a to way cly. on a one way stym. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 11:09pm
Here are the pics. Let me know if they show what you need.  |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 11:11pm
|
uploads/4032/IMG_3090_Large_e-mail_view.jpg - uploads/4032/IMG_3091_Large_e-mail_view.jpg - uploads/4032/IMG_3091_Large_e-mail_view.jpg uploads/4032/IMG_3090_Large_e-mail_view.jpg - uploads/4032/IMG_3090_Large_e-mail_view.jpg uploads/4032/IMG_3087_Large_e-mail_view.jpg - uploads/4032/IMG_3087_Large_e-mail_view.jpg uploads/4032/IMG_3088_Large_e-mail_view.jpg - uploads/4032/IMG_3088_Large_e-mail_view.jpg |
Posted By: Steve M C/IL
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 11:27pm
| It is a 2-way cylinder but is hooked up correct as a 1-way with the other line just vented.Not been around a B but the pumps are similar in principle to a WD45.There has to be a hold valve somewhere and it sounds like it isn't releasing.On a 45 when the shaft rotates it pushes the ball off the seat to release return oil.Does the thumbscrew bottomed out on the spring have anything to do with that? |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 11:33pm
If we're talking about the same screw, the manual I picked up says that controls the rate of flow. I take that as how fast it allows the 4-point to drop. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2010 at 11:34pm
Correction, I meant to say 3-point. It's been a long day.... |
Posted By: Steve M C/IL
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 12:06am
| I hear ya. Go to http://www.agcopartsbooks.com - www.agcopartsbooks.com and use the guest user-view books.In the first box type "b" in the second select agco-allis them submit.A bunch of stuff will come up and click on The B/IB/power unit line.When that page comes up you can scroll down to the hydraulics section and look at those.I looked at the fist one and it showed the pump and pieces.You can clik pic and enlarge till you get it big enough to see.You have to do some "draggin" to keep it on the page.I usually just click the print button instead and enlarge that but you still can't read the no's on that one.Looks to me like the smaller hex plug they are calling the relief and I can't tell what I'm seeing in the picture but on a 45 that shaft has a flat spot that when rotated,pushes the relief open and lets the cyl colapse.Might try loosening/removing that plug to see if something is stuck.I wouldn't have weight hanging on system to try that.Block it up or something.any way,hope this helps. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 1:24am
This looks like it will be a tremendous help. I was able to view the parts and locate a dealer within an hour so I should be able to call them Monday to see what they have in stock or can get for me. Thanks! |
Posted By: Bee
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 2:23am
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Sandy Lake, a forum vendor is outstanding if your local dealer cannot come through.
------------- Bob, North Carolina 1949 B |
Posted By: pumpkin man
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 11:40am
| try removing that return hose from the filler hole could air locked the cly needs to suck air. you dont need return line you need a vent. thy have vent plugs for useing 2 way clys on 1 way sytms or make your own by cross drilling a pipe plug and putting a cotter key in the hole that keeps the dirt out |
Posted By: pumpkin man
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 11:57am
| for got to ask what kind of oil is in trans syst. book calls for motor oil [ 20 w -15=40 -10 30 - hy-trans] not 80-90 gear lube its to heavy like tar when cold also back thumb screw out llets valve open more. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 12:24pm
I have no idea what's in there right now but I'm sure it needs changed before I do too much. I cleared out the drain holes (I've heard them called mouse doors) last night and a bunch of water drained out. The drain holes appeared to have been plugged by a bunch of heavy grease and hair/grass which I assume got in there from a rodent. As for the return line, you're saying to take the line off the cylinder that's closest to the ram? Right now, it looks like this goes into the trans just behind where my left foot sits. If I eliminate that line do I plug the hole it goes to in the trans? One other thing, I got the I&T manual but it doesn't seem to show any sections on draining all the fluids and filling it, only capacities. Do the entire hydraulics and trans all run off the same fluid? I'm sure I'm showing my ignorance but I think I'm starting to pick it up a little. Thanks again for the helpful posts. It's nice to know this is one of the few good forums where people are actually willing to help! |
Posted By: Steve M C/IL
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 2:36pm
|
That would be a good idea to try first.When lift is raised and won't go down,just loosen the connection on the line and see if it bleeds off and lets arms crawl down.Then you would know there is no problem with the line or cylinder.As stated,they make "vents" for 2-way cylinders which would be more desirable than the extra hose.Any place that sells cylinders should have them and then just plug the other end/hole that now goes in by your left foot. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 3:54pm
Interesting, so the vent with only allow air out and no fluid? I will definitely try to loosen that hose. There shouldn't be any real pressure on it, right? Also, when I loosen it slightly and if that's the problem they should bleed down but also still raise if I'm understanding correctly? |
Posted By: Steve M C/IL
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 4:40pm
| Yeah,I'm just saying to crack and loosen the hose that feeds the cyl to see if by letting the oil escape there it will let the cylinder colapse.If the oil bleeds out but the cyl won't compress you got something wrong with the hose or cylinder.If that's the case then remove the hose first to see it blows free then try to compress the cyl.Cyl should be able to compress with no hose by just pushing down on lift arm. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 4:46pm
I do know that something is bleeding off as it is because as long as the pto is not engaged, the hydraulics will bleed down with or without a load on it. After I shut the tractor of after the 3-point is raised, I can push on the drawbar and hear a leak somewhere and I suspect it's in the cylinder. If that's the case, I can live with that for now as long it will will hold up but I have no way of lowering with the pto engaged. |
Posted By: Steve M C/IL
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 5:07pm
| It sounds like it's pumping all the time it's running and won't quit even when put in hold or lower position.Actually they do pump all the time but it should go into bypass mode at hold and lower position.Something must be stuck internally.You should be able to dissaemble,clean and reassemble without buying any new parts.You might find a broken piece but it sounds like something is froze up.I can't believe the "B" experts ain't in here helping out. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 5:07pm
|
I will bet money if you remove the hose that goes back to the tranny fill hole, you will have a mess of oil all over after raising the 3PT. That 2 way cylinder has a leak-by in the piston or the original owner wouldn't have gone to the trouble to run a return line. That side of the cylinder shouldn't have any oil in it unless the piston is leaking. I would also bet the reason the 3 pt goes down after shutting of the PTO is because the oil is leaking past the cylinder piston and following the hose back to the fill hole. With the "return" line disconnected and anchored into a bucket, raise the blade up and shut the PTO off. Watch the oil leak out of the hose, into the bucket. That still doesn't fix your original problem of letting the 3 Pt go back down. I would leave the return hose in place if the cylinder is leaking by and concentrate on the valve operation until you have more time to mess with it. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 6:43pm
|
Great, thank you all. It sounds like step one is to remove the entire pump and clean and not worry about new parts. I will be calling some potential dealers in my area just to see if they have parts available in case and at the very least a new gasket when I go to reassembly. Since all this attention was brought to the cylinder, I went out and looked it over real well and it appears as though this is not at all original. Towards the top, where is slides onto the pin to mount it to the tractor, it looks like someone welded the eyelet onto the replacement cylinder in order to get it to work on this tractor. Maybe this is why is seems to raise a little slow with or without a load. If I'm not going to mess everything up, I would eventually like to find an original cylinder put back on there but it's got me questioning now whether that 3-point was even original to the tractor. |
Posted By: pumpkin man
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 9:24pm
| were the return hose is hooked to the trans s the fill hole takes a 1 inch pipe plug you do not need a return line if that cly. has oil in that side [where the return line hooks on]then the cly. is leeking [its junk]cost more to fixthan its worth. ther are 3 dra in plugs on the bottom of tras-rear end-& P T O houseings should have a 3/8 square hole in them take them out one at a time drain each unit refill with fuel oil [with the scraper off the tractor] & P T O off drive it around the yard for a wile then take the pump hose off the cly. put it in a pail put P T O in gear and work the pump this should flush the pump drain the fuel oil out of the houseings this will flush the crap out then refill with oil[motor-oil] [not 80-90 gear lube] put a ad in the forum want ads for B or C hdl cly. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2010 at 9:58pm
Thanks. I will also take a few more pics tomorrow of the current cylinder and how it's attached so it will better show my doubts about it being original or for this particular tractor. I also appears that some brackets were welded onto the horizontal rod that runs along the back of the seat (the part of the 3-point that rotates) and maybe you guys can confirm if it was added. I apoligize if this is dragging out. I'm just trying to get every little piece of info I can before I dig in to make sure I'm doing everything right. I would prefer if at all possible to bring it back to it's original condition when I do all of this and get rid of whatever may have been rigged up from the past. |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 12:18am
|
yochujr, That cylinder is at least 50% bigger then the original one and It sounds like oil is leaking past the cylinder, as has been suggested. The older AC's ran higher hydraulic pressure then other tractors of the time, that is why they could get by with such small cylinders. I suspect something is stuck in the pump/valve and all the constant pressure on the inside of the cylinder caused it to blow out the o ring/seal in it. There are a lot of AC's that used the same system so a cylinder should not be hard to find at a reasonable price. Good luck.
------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: pumpkin man
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 9:00am
| your hitch is a home bilt [looks well made.good for that scraper or a rear mount mower] you will need a reg. B draw bar for pulling hualing heavy loads if you put a 3 pt. draw bar on those arm s the weight will to far back makeing the front end too lite |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 9:31am
|
Here are some pics ov how the cylinder and the 3-point are set up. Is
it still possible to directly replace this cylinder with an original one
or will it require some kind of fabrication? There seems to be so many
out there, I have not been able to find any pics or info on exactly
what my setup is supposed to look like. uploads/4032/IMG_3117_Large_e-mail_view.jpg - uploads/4032/IMG_3117_Large_e-mail_view.jpg uploads/4032/IMG_3118_Large_e-mail_view.jpg - uploads/4032/IMG_3118_Large_e-mail_view.jpg uploads/4032/IMG_3119_Large_e-mail_view.jpg - uploads/4032/IMG_3119_Large_e-mail_view.jpg uploads/4032/IMG_3120_Large_e-mail_view.jpg - uploads/4032/IMG_3120_Large_e-mail_view.jpg uploads/4032/IMG_3122_Large_e-mail_view.jpg - uploads/4032/IMG_3122_Large_e-mail_view.jpg |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 3:58pm
|
Not for sure but I believe an OEM cylinder will fit. It's shorter but the mounting hole is on the end on the cylinder. And I believe the pin thats welded to the seat frame is the way it came from the factory. Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 4:53pm
|
"If I'm not going to mess everything up, I would eventually like to find
an original cylinder put back on there but it's got me questioning now
whether that 3-point was even original to the tractor." The B Allis Chalmers never had a 3point hitch. All were add ons. "were the return hose is hooked to the trans s the fill hole takes a 1 inch pipe plug you do not need a return line if that cly. has oil in that side [where the return line hooks on]then the cly. is leeking [its junk]cost more to fixthan its worth." In 15 years of machine repair work I don't believe I ever scrapped out a hydraulic cylinder. I have made new rods, replaced packing, manufactured and replaced packing glands and even made new jugs for cylinders. If there was a direct replacement available for the application a new cylinder might have been used once or twice. Charlie ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 5:20pm
What where the hydraulics originally there for on a B? Is there an off the shelf replacement cylinder for a farm store that will act as a direct replacement for the original cylinder or something that will work for my application? I was told on this forum that I shouldn't have too much trouble finding an original for a decent price. Since it's now looking like everything is going to have to be drained and flushed and they pump needs to be cleaned out, I would like to be able to gather up all the new parts and do everything at once while it's all apart. |
Posted By: pumpkin man
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 6:03pm
| your not listing to what we have told you to do. spend $6 dollors for some fuel oil - drain the sys. flush it .put new oil in check the cly for leeking then you wiil have some idea of whats wrong. if it was mine I would get rid of that cly. & find an orgl. you can get one for less than $50 put a want add in the Forums want adds. the pump is working if its lifting up but not going down [right] the return valve is pluged or dirty. thats what the flushing mite take care of if it dosent then tair in to the pump. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 6:19pm
I'm listening to what everyone is saying. I'm just finding more and more with this and want to make sure I have everything I need and do everything in the correct order. I have said before I know nothing about this and maybe this project was a little too ambitious but I'm just trying to learn as much as I can up front so I don't get myself into trouble down the road when I get into. I apologize if you took anything the wrong way. All the information you guys have given me so far is priceless. Is fuel oil the same as what you use for heat? I'm not familiar with that. Also, do I just refill with 20w motor oil? |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 6:47pm
| I knew I got the oil reccomendation from somewhere. I read back where you was 20w-15 motor oil |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 7:46pm
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buddy, your problem with the original cyilinder is in is about 1 inch bore. If you figure the pump puts out 3000 psi, then you got 2500 # of push on the cyllinder. With all the linkage and mechanical arms you will see that you can only pickup a 200- 250 pound blade. Been there, done that. I have one tractor that has TWO of the 1 inch B cylinders and two others that have bigger cylinders. One has a CA cylinder that is about 2 inch bore, and one has a WD45 cylinder that has about a 2 inch bore. That gives you much more lift in the back. One of the small B cylinders will probably just barely lift a light duty blade. I agree, you have a problem inside the pump that it will not drop. Fix that and see how things work. Your going to get into a little work trying to replace the cylinder since the mount, diameter, and rod length varies between cylinders and require modification. ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 7:53pm
 ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 7:53pm
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the above is a CA tractor cylinder mounted on a B ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 7:55pm
this is a B cylinder (very small- not much force for lift)
 ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 8:03pm
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this is what the rock shaft looks like connected to a double plow on the B
src=" http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq86/steve-ill/rockshaftandwheels004.jpg - http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq86/steve-ill/rockshaftandwheels004.jpg " border="0" alt="rockshaft"></a> ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 8:09pm
this was a big one bottom plow that i put a blade onto the plow beam. It had two small C cylinders. I tryed it with one, and it will barely lift. I later installed a WD45 cylinder.
 ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 8:13pm
| I see, those pics helped a lot. I'm starting to understand how they worked without a 3-point. That was for implements with a snap coupler, right? I will try flushing and if that doesn't work, I will try removing the pump and cleaning is as suggested by another member. If that works, I might just leave the cylinder that's already on it for now until I get everything else worked out. Thanks for the great pics. Being not so familiar with these models yet, that at least gives me something to reference. Once it warms up, I'm hoping to hit some local shows and study them a little closer now. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 8:15pm
The only real difference I see between this one and mine is the two brackets that attach to the ram end of the cylinder. Mine are curved more like hooks. Does a CA cylinder "bolt" right up to the original mounts without much modification? |
Posted By: pumpkin man
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 8:39pm
| llyes refill the syst. with motor oil [ all of these oils will work- 20-w or 10-30 or 15-40 or hi trans] all are avl. tractor supply-a auto parts-wal-mart-farm fuel dealer-ect. you are not goeing to get in trouble by draining & flushing the syst. agan if you have oil in the return hose the cly. is leeking should be no oil on end of the cly. on a 2-way cly. you have to have presure up & down. the B Allis syst. does not have down presure. Start by checking the cly. take the return hose off [you dont meed it] if the cly is leeking oil will come out when raiseing if not put vent plug in it next drain & flush-take the presure hose off the cly.put in a bucket & work the pump control lever up & down when flushing the pump. works wonders You can buy parts alday long but you havent found the problem YET! Sorry to sound gruff but after 50 some yrs. of working-playing & repairing Allis. Bs & Cs you learn some times the hard way some times the easy quit talking about how to-go due it.dont know what else to tell you. but tell us about what you found. |
Posted By: Steve M C/IL
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 8:41pm
| BTW Fuel oil is slang for diesel fuel.It will kind of wash down the junk but still has limited lubricating properties.That's why it was suggested to not put any real load on whatever system you put it in to "flush".Buzzing around the drive or short trips on the road with only the tractor shouldn't cause harm.Drain and refill with proper lubricant.Likewise with the hydraulic system. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 8:58pm
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No, don't worry about sounding gruff. I have NEVER work on hydraulics of any kind so I'm a bit cautious but it's finally starting to make sense in my head. I see what you're saying about a 2 way cylinder and down pressure. I really appreciate your patience and help with me on this. Once I can gather up the supplies and get the wife's car out of the garage to work on it (it's supposed to be getting down in the single digits here so working on it outside is not an option) I will do exactly as you say. My only other question is, since right now the hitch only raises, will that still flush everything out? I realize it needs to be done regardless but I guess if it still won't go down, that basically tells me that the other problem is in the top (relief section) of the pump? I have capacities out of the manual @ 6 quarts of oil for the dif and trans. Is that correct? Do the trans, diff and hydraulic all run of the same system? |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 9:10pm
| On a side note, I did get the lights rewired and a new switch put in and they work great, although my little 4-year old thinks he's responsible for getting them to work which is probably the case. I also ordered a new sediment bowl assembly because my has been leaking full for days and has everything stunk up! |
Posted By: MilesGray (CO/KS)
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 9:38pm
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Welcome to the site! There are great folks on here that can help you with anything to do with AC tractors... When you use the hydraulics on the B you need 7 quarts of fluid, a quart to run the hydraulics.------------- Miles Gray (CO/KS) 5 1938 B's, 1940 B, 1944 WF C, 1948 NF C, Gleaner A, White Top Rotobaler, 1957 IH Golden Jubilee... I'm either a collector, or crazy! |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 10:37pm
Thanks. You are correct, everyone on this site has been extremely helpfull.....and patient. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 10:55pm
pumpkin man, is something like this alright to use? http://www.ruralking.com/transdraulic-fluid-h-k-univ-2-gal.html |
Posted By: Steve M C/IL
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2010 at 11:59pm
| Yes it is.Commonly referred to as hy-tran oil.Basically all makes have used it in everything but the engine since the 70's. AC referred to "their's" as 821 power fluid.That # as well as other makes #'s are listed on containers.Today it says AGCO 821. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2010 at 11:40pm
| Well, I wanted to come back and thank everyone for the help. I couldn't get my pump unstuck and discovered it had several other problems. i was able to find one online for a very reasonable price. I also found a b cylinder on another forum and got everything put back together and it works! What a relief. Everything seems to be running good except the 3-point is a chatters a little when going up but I'm hoping that smooths out tomorrow after I get all the air bled out. With only the weight of the 3-point and the draw bar, I raised it about half way up and left if for several hours and it didn't seem to bleed off at all. Tomorrow, I'm going to hook up my blade and see how that works. Thanks again to everyone for all the advise. I'm sure I'll need some more in the near future as the brakes will probably be the next big project! |
Posted By: Steve M C/IL
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2010 at 11:46pm
| Good for you.Just remember some have said the small B cyl may not lift much weight. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2010 at 11:53pm
| Yeah, that's why I'm anxious to try it out tomorrow. I only paid 25 bucks for the cylinder so if nothing else, it was good enough to confirm that everything was in good working order now. If that doesn't do the trick, I'll either be adding another b cylinder or replacing with a new cylinder if I can find one to fit. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2010 at 12:36am
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When changing hydraulic rams, calculate the piston surface area. Use your high-school math formulas to determine how much SURFACE is being acted upon by system pressure... and then multiply that surface area by the pump's output pressure (around 3200psi or so) to determine what your linear force is. Often, running a single, larger cylinder will provide more surface area than two smaller cylinders... just do the math... and realize, that since the pump can only move so much oil so fast, a larger-volume cylinder setup will take longer to make a full lift. Tractors prior to the early-mid '60's commonly used high pressure, low volume hydraulic systems, and generally they were single-acting cylinders for operating things like dump boxes on wagons, lifting up sickle mowers, hay rakes, bailers, etc... ran at upwards of 3-4000psi at only a few gallons a minute. Newer systems use a low-pressure/high volume setup... more like 1200psi... but 10+ gallons per minute. Larger cylinders made up for the loss of pressure. The 3-point hitch was a very substantially-protected Harry Ferguson patent until the early '60's... prior to that time, most major farm equipment manufacturers had some sort of 2-point lift system. Most of these systems were not difficult to adapt to a 3-point system, so many older tractors were equipped with 3-point after-the-fact. Don't immediately assume that your brakes need replacing- take off the covers and inspect, but before yankin' 'em out, check-see wether the adjusters have any adjustment left... if they do, break the nuts free and tighten up the adjusters a bit... that might be all it takes to get you back in good graces with the stoppin'iron gods. ;-) |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2010 at 11:45am
Thanks, that is interesting and good to know. As for the brakes, I will definately look at adjusting them first. I do know that both of the cover plates have a bolt broke off on either side so that should be fun trying to get them out. It also looks like I have a spring off the clutch slide of the tractor somewhere down in the bracket housing I need to investigate. If I can get that fixed up, I will then try to make some adjustments and keep my fingers crossed they will have enough left to get me through for a little while. |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2010 at 11:49am
Good news, I hooked up the blade today and held my breath but the single b cylinder raised it with no problem. I came up pretty quickly and didn't seem to struggle at all. I also raised it all the way and killed the tractor and left it there for a while and it still didn't seem to bleed down any noticeable amount so I'm super happy and operational finally! I tried to take a movie with my camera of it raising up and down but it was 18 megs so pictures will have to do for now but as soon as I can figure out how to take a smaller movie, I will try to upload it. Thanks again for everyone that took the time to help me out.   
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Posted By: Scoottmiester
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2011 at 10:44pm
| Hello: I didn't read all the replies, but I have been on http://www.oktractor.com - www.oktractor.com & http://www.tonystractors.com - www.tonystractors.com and they have all kinds of part for the Allis Chalmers B. I just bought a 1948 Allis Chalmers B two weeks ago and I really like it, it is in show room condition, and runs like new. It cam with a blade on the front and works well for plowing my 375 yard long driveway. This is an awesome little tractor! I think my wife is jellous of it already! |
Posted By: Scoottmiester
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2011 at 10:50pm
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Posted By: Bob D. (La)
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2011 at 4:55am
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Ya dun good Scottmeister. That is a sweet looking B. Glad it works out so well for you. I know a B is a lot of little tractor.God Bless
PS: Wife must be jealous as she makes you park it outside instead of in garage. LOL ------------- When you find yourself in a hole,PUT DOWN THE SHOVEL!!! |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2011 at 2:22pm
| Wow, that's sharp. Congrats! |
Posted By: beeman
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2011 at 7:05pm
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Fine looking tractors. I've got to paint mine when it warms up down South. ------------- 1949 B 3930 Ford- Have owned other Orange ,green,red,yellow,dark green tractors and equipment. |
Posted By: Scoottmiester
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2011 at 10:34pm
| You guys are awesome! All of your combined knowledge is amazing! I know where to go for answers if I have any questions about my little B. Scott |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 2:45pm
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Well, I thought it was only appropriate that I share this will you all first after all the help. I was able to use the B today to clear my driveway and it worked great! We only had about 3 inches so far but everything seemed to be in working order. I did notice that it takes a little extra effort without brakes (hopefully get those fixed once it warms up) but overall, I can't complain. I also noticed a couple of other things that I need to figure out. 1. Weight on the front with definitely help the handling. It's not too much of a problem with the blade raised surprisingly, but when you get a load behind you, it does get a little light. 2. The steering seems pretty loose and it dances a little so I would like to tighten that up a bit. 3. I was running in 2nd gear and for some reason, when I throttle up to get going pretty good it would do great for a few seconds and then the rpms seem to drop back down. Not sure if it's anything big or just a loose linkage that's slipping. 4. Lastly, I went to fire it up and the starter didn't want to engage for the first couple times. Not sure what the problem is but hopefully it will hang in there for the rest of the cold season. |
Posted By: Charlie175
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 3:04pm
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Your long lift arms are what helps you. Most of the kits are designed with short arms which require a bigger Ram to work. Congratulations on the B and the blade. Should work great for the intended purpose. ------------- Charlie '48 B, '51 CA, '56 WD45 '61 D17, '63 D12, '65 D10 , '68 One-Ninety XTD |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 3:06pm
Thanks, it was nice to be able to use it today and it's a lot better on the blacktop drive than the neighbor's bobcat! Now, I might have to be looking on the classifieds for a new starter.... |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 3:08pm
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4.If the starter doesn't engage, take a hold of the fan and push the belt tight while turning the fan a little( make sure you ignition is of or grounded first and the tractor is in neutral) . If your ring gear has a bad spot, you can turn it just a little and the starter will grab. 3. Often these old tractors have the throttle lever worn so bad it won't stay in the notch you put it in. You may have to take that lever off and weld p the back side and file it square again. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: yochujr
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 3:25pm
Thanks, just went out and turned the fan so if I did have some bad teeth on the ring gear, it should grab here better. I have heard on some tractors, the started always engages the same spot on the ring gear. Is that true or does it change every time you start it depending on where it stops? For the throttle, the lever seems to stay in the notch and everything seems to be secure but I'll keep an eye on it. It doesn't sound like it's bogging down, it just sounds like I kicked the throttle back and the rmps drop off rather quickly and steady as opposed to pulling down slowly like it would with a big load behind it. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2011 at 6:37pm
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A 4 cylinder will stop in 2 places. 2 pistons up and 2 pistons down so the ringgear will wear in those 2 spots. Maybe you governor is a out of whack and needs some tweaking. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |