Anyone close to a wind farm?
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Topic: Anyone close to a wind farm?
Posted By: Brad MI
Subject: Anyone close to a wind farm?
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 7:08pm
| What has been your experience? |
Replies:
Posted By: Alvin NE WI
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 7:13pm
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It is pretty windy here right now and also for the last several days. Alvin NE WI |
Posted By: FloydKS
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 7:24pm
| ?Experience as far as noise, disturbing cattle... ...? |
Posted By: kip in cny
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 8:00pm
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most farmers in way noth NY that have windmills on their land gave up farming from the money they get from the windmills on their land. ------------- 160 CA 920diesel 5020 HD-3 |
Posted By: norm[ind]
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 8:06pm
| BENTON CO. IND HAS HUNDRES OF THEM |
Posted By: RickUP
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 8:07pm
| Keep them far from your house!!!!!!!!!!!! 2-5 miles !!! |
Posted By: jaybmiller
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 8:08pm
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I saw a TV program about it last year, seems cattle get used to the whoosh,whoosh fairly fast, farmers get used to the steady income faster !!
I'd certanly read and re-read any contract, especially about access to the towers, use of land,etc. before signing anything !
The noise isn't a big concern. Heck, I helped a friend move from the city awhile ago, could believe all the city traffic noise !! Being in the country 25 years...ears got used to 'peace and quiet'.
------------- 3 D-14s,A-C forklift, B-112 Kubota BX23S lil' TOOT( The Other Orange Tractor) Never burn your bridges, unless you can walk on water |
Posted By: GlenninPA
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 8:30pm
| bout' 6 miles away. Big, ungainly looking things on the ridgetops, daughter's current beau works there, tough on birds and bats.... |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 8:30pm
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I can see them, I don't hear them, even when closer. Gerald J. |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 8:46pm
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I see one every time I go towards Erie,Il. Most times it isn't turning so I doubt there are many complaints about it.
------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Brad MI
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 8:46pm
| Well, I'm the Planning Commission Chair in our township and Duke Energy is proposing a wind farm here. We are in a farm/resort area on the coast of Lake Michigan. I've spent hundreds of hours looking at information about these projects and their affects on the people and area around them. I was hoping to hear some real life experiences from some great down to earth folks like we have on here. Sounds like my job could get interesting! Oh well, @ $25.00/month compensation I guess it's about time I earn my keep. lol |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 8:57pm
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We have a number here in SE Minnesota and more are trying to be built. Lot's of controversy. Besides the revenue to the land owners, they also provide property tax revenue to the local governments. The biggest issue is getting agreement on setbacks from houses. The opponents want at least a 1/2 mile while the proponents want a lot less. Here's a link to some opponents with contact info that you may want to use. http://www.goodhuewindtruth.com/Gallery.html - http://www.goodhuewindtruth.com/Gallery.html ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: Claus
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 9:08pm
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Wind power is very clean but no matter how we make power somebody is going to complain about it, probably as they are using it. |
Posted By: scott
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 9:33pm
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If wind power is subsidized and the subsidy was "pulled", like they are doing in Spain, could the mills operate and make money? If not, what then? |
Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 9:43pm
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The additional cost would be submitted with justification by the utilities in their rate case to the Public Service Commission. The Public Service Commission would make the decision if all or part of the rate case was justified, and the justified portion would be passed on to the consumer to pay as part of their utility bill. ------------- "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain |
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 10:05pm
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But, Scott has a very good question. These things do not have a real long service life, what happens if they are abandoned because the return on investment isn't there? I'm not arguing against them, I'm just saying somebody in Brads shoes needs to consider that. ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 10:16pm
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The contractual provisions of the termination vary, and are written into the individual contracts with the landowner. Typically the utility has the responsibility to demo and restore when the useful life is ended for any reason. ------------- "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain |
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 10:33pm
What is happening around here with the gas companies is they are buying up land leases, with three to five payments over the life of the lease, making the first payment, coming on the property, drilling test wells, and then if dry, abandoning the wells and not making the remaining payments.
Again, I'm not against the gas companies either, but it is things that a public official such as Brad may wish to account for ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
GBACBFan wrote:Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 10:33pm
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I haven't been following the ones around here that close, but the one in the county north of me isn't being built by the power utility. It's being built by a private, out of state company who will then sell power to the utility. I don't know what would happen if the company building the project went belly-up when the windmills started to wear out. Like a lot of companies, they will likely have few assets outside of the windmills themselves.
------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 10:48pm
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John Deere Energy just ordered a bunch of units from Vestis, a Danish company with three plants here in Colorado. I believe they are going to Norm's state, Indiana. Supposed to be put up next year. Vestis will handle maintenance for a few years. Wonder if they will paint the towers green and the blades yellow? LOL
------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 11:30pm
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You're mixing apples and oranges, Lou. I was answering the question on wind power contracts with land owners. You referred to answering Scott's question and Brad's concern on wind power. I believe my answers to be accurate on that subject. We have a few wind farms, and I've been involved in some of those contracts through the developers.
There was no question here on gas wells. Gas wells are an entirely different animal, and are not analogous with wind farms. You don't need to address the price of rice in Shanghai, China if you're writing a contract to buy hay from Omaha, Nebraska. The four corners of the contract for wind power need to be reviewed on the merits of the goods and services they are intended to address. ------------- "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain |
Posted By: Dave in il
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 12:06am
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We're about 8 miles from one, no noise other than a very slight "whoosh" when standing at the base of one. But they are eye sores at best, and the red lights at nights are really annoying. They're set so they all go off and on at the same time, but I've been told they're even more annoying when they blink independently. We have two companies putting them up and a third is applying for permits.
I'm township supervisor and they are moving into our township next year. We have a small but vocal group against them, but most people seem to be for them or don't care one way or the other. Our road commisioner and others in the county hired a lawyer to represent them in the negotiations with the windmill companies. This attorney has experience in these negotiaions and says they will promise everything but will try to follow through on as little as possible during and after construction.
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Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 12:26am
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It is a good idea to involve an attorney, Dave, to make sure the contract balances the risk. It's a bit of a scare tactic on his part when he says they promise everything but will try to follow through on as little as possible during and after construction. You need to remember he's only making money when the meter's running. That said, once you get a contract in place, the developer, or utility if you're dealing direct, are bound by the terms of the agreement, and will find it difficult not to follow through on anything within the four corners of the agreement.
Ask your attorney to show you examples of agreements from other areas, good and bad, and build your contract accordingly. If he's an expert in that field, he'll have samples. You will also need to manage your attorney, and not let him manage you, or you will have a large bill to pay from his law firm at the end. Have him give you an estimate of time and cost to help you put your contract in place, and manage to that budget. If he's unwilling to do that, you may well have the wrong attorney. ------------- "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain |
Posted By: Larry(OH)
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 8:03am
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I guess my compant.. AEP has some involvement in a big farm in texas. I think its Mesa wind farm. The thing is, its a classic case of Not in My Back Yard, but we want cheap electric. I would rather have a wind farm than a nuclear or coal plant there. I might be a little biased because I work for a electric utility. I have seen video of them with the "swoosh" noises and I guess I would get used to it the way I got used to the RR tracks in the town I moved to after getting married. Here is a link of AEP's latest wind discussions and a little info on them.
As I side note in Ohio, the PUCO has told AEP that they need to have a source of "green" energy by a certain date, so they have to do what is told
http://www.aep.com/newsroom/newsreleases/?id=1651 - http://www.aep.com/newsroom/newsreleases/?id=1651
hope this helps, JMHO ------------- '40 WC puller,'50 WD puller,'50 M puller '65 770 Ollie *ALLIS EXPRESS contact* I can explain it to you, BUT I cannot understand it for you!! |
Posted By: Brian S(NY)
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 8:21am
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My brothers farm is surrounded by them. No noticable problems. dont scare the cows.
Lou is right about concerns of WHAT HAPPENS IN 25 YEARS when they become obsolete?
I live in cherry valley new york. Every one was in favor untill some money got tossed around and several folks got new jobs etc. ... then the project was killed. They passed laws keeping out windmills but never thought about gas wells. Now they are drilling and fracking gas wells all over town and have no regulations in place.Id rather have windmills. ------------- God made man.Sam colt made man equal. |
Posted By: Bob-Maine
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 8:34am
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Brad, Lou and others, This is very controversial here in Maine. We have quite a few and many more being permitted. I am the vice chair of our town's Planning Board and have done a little inquiring just in case someone decides to build a wind farm here. We are a very small town and could use the tax revenue but also need to consider homeowners who might experience some reported downsides to a windmill near a home.
One thing I would consider and maybe push for would be some form of bonding, paid for by the developer, which would pay for dismantling a windfarm if the owner went belly up. Having a contract which says the owner will dismantle isn't much good if that owner goes bankrupt. Bonding by a stable firm might address that. Just my $0.02 worth. Bob@allisdowneast |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 9:29am
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Keep in mind that wind power is not cheap power. The utilities around here are using the Minnesota requirement that they must use X% wind power in their grids to raise rates.
------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 9:47am
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Brad, Bob said what I was going to say. I was on out township board and planning commission, we allowed the county to do the zoning but worked with them. We are not into wind farms, but on cell towers the county has it set up so that if a tower is abandoned, defined as not used for at least 1 year it must come down. To insure that there are funds to do that there must be a letter of credit before the tower can go up. I'm very glad to see many of the guys on here on township boards. It's very educational. Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 9:47am
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the problem is they are not economical. Federal Govt gives third party supplier money to build the inefficient unit, the turns around and forces the local power company to buy the power at high price and turn around and peddle it as "green" They force a given percent of the electric companys power to be "green". Power company must then go to the regulatory commision and ask for rate increase. If it is yes... YOU PAY. If it is no, the company gets screwed and dones not have resources to maintain the system and you have future blakcouts or down time. Somewhere down the road when the govt stops subsidizing, eithe the system goes belly up, or local regulatory group is forcing individuals to pay 2 or 3 x as much for your power to pay for the inefficient things... and their life span is about 8-10 years---- MAYBE! ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 10:12am
And, since Brad is, to some degree, representing the land owners and was soliciting advice, and since I have a friend who is in Brads shoes who stepped into the mess with the natural gas developers (after the fact) I thought it was worth mentioning. The last thing a property owner would want would be a non-producing expensive tower of junk stuck on their property that would cost more to remove than they ever made in royalties. And, the nature of the business is such that this very scenario could happen if provisions are not made for it up front, the money needs to be available to dismantle and remove, even if the developer goes belly up.
Sorry, didn't mean to step on your toes there my friend ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 10:22am
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Sorry, Lou. I must have just come back from the political Forum. I gotta quit peeking over there!
Actually, the biggest concern I would have living near a wind farm hasn't been addressed here. The noise is much less of an issue than shadow flicker. I would suggest anyone considering a tower on their property build in appropriate setbacks to avoid this phenomenon. ------------- "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 10:52am
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Steve- Why do you say it's not 'efficient' power? Manpower cost to maintain, in comparison to MwH produced, is substantially lower, and the fuel cost is absolutely zero. In terms of maintenance staffing, ONE maintenance team can maintain well over 100 towers just-as-easily as maintaining 10... and as a benefit, damage to one tower (say, a lightning strike) has very little crippling effect on the entire farm, so even while a few are under repair, the rest are running. With a nuclear plant, if there's a plant problem, you have an 'outage'... and it's pretty serious. The earlier generation of 50-100kw, then 100-500kw towers weren't nearly as productive, and required many more installations to equate to substantial produce (in terms of grid supply, anyway), but the ones I walk by every day are capable of well over a megawatt-per-blade. As for noise, how many of you live, or grew up on a farm that had the venerable water-lifting windmill? I remember waking up at night to the creak of an old Aermotor... even got to know when the supply cistern was full, because Grandpa rigged up a float and disconnect clutch to make it automatic. Nowdays, I have a monitoring panel in my house that shows me wether the henhouse doors are closed... but Grandpa didn't even hafta get out of his chair to know wether the cistern was full... And then there were the hog waterers... and the roosters... and the horses... and he lived in a valley, where every time a kid drove down the highway with open headers, you heard it for about 30 minutes... and the train on the other side of town... And then there's Marv's old Poppin' Johnny driving his sawmill up in the timber... and that wonderful growl of Grandpa's D17 as he pulled his disk through late-spring river-bottom soil. Ah, surround-sound stereo... old-school! When I stand 100' from the base of the tower, I hear a low hum, and a very slight whoosh. The blade tips are moving at about 88ft/sec, and the rotational speed is about 30rpm... that's a blade-pass every three-quarters of a second. You MIGHT, if you're downwind, be able to hear the lot of 'em, all singing their song... would you rather live downwind of a coal-fired plant and listen to the trains and transport/loaders 24/7? or a natural gas plant and listen to engines rumble? How 'bout being downwind of a nuclear plant, and listening to the buzzers and loudspeakers? Dismantling unused towers? Doubt it. Most projects where towers are being permanently dismantled, still have their primary value: Good wind. It is for that reason, that when they dismantle one, they're installing a new one not-far-away... a bigger base, for a new column. Along the Tehachapi, California east ridge, they're taking down old 80kw units a dozen-at-a-time, and installing ONE 4.3MW unit in it's place. Bigger, slower, and orders of magnitude more powerful. The really nice thing, is that they can spread 'em out farther, so the airflow is smoother, they're more efficient. Frankly, I'd like to own a trio of leftover 50kw Vestas 'mills... I'd put up two of 'em on my northeast property line, and run 'em to water heaters... no fancy switchgear, no regulators, and no grid-tie hassles- just water heaters. Circulate the hot water through my house, and my workshop and barn floors... so when that cold January wind blows hard, I'm toasty warm and happy. I wouldn't mind finding an old 35' tower with a rebuildable Aermotor, but they've basically been stripped from all the local farms by 'pickers'. |
Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 11:06am
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Maintenance isn't the problem, Dave. They're not efficient because of the initial cost to build vs the energy produced over the 10-12 year lifespan, and not reliable because if the wind don't blow, they don't generate anything. Life cycle cost/megawatt generated for wind power is a trailing third to nuclear (lowest cost) and coal (second lowest cost)
Steve is correct, without subsidies and the requirement for the utilities to have green generation in their portfolios, there would be no wind farm construction. ------------- "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain |
Posted By: RickUP
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 11:23am
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Many people do not see the hidden cost to opperate a wind farm. It takes big tax dollars to get them up and running, and keep them running if the wind blows. Does anyone look into the millions in profits the company takes. (tax money) Wind or no wind, profits. It's a very green proposition $$$ That is why they are popping up all over. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 11:38am
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I agree, GB, that if the wind doesn't blow, they generate nothing. I doubt the 10-12 year lifespan- while one could put a 10-12 year on the velocity of obsolescense, the Gen II units from the mid '80's are STILL generating. When I was out in Tehachapi, I was talking with a crew about the units they're taking down... they'd NEVER been down for rebuild, and most were selling and going back into private service with essentially bearings and seals. But re. the subsidy issue: If it were not for subsidies, there would be NO nuclear production whatsoever. Initial subsidy for the greatest start of nuclear experimentation started with Alfred Loomis, and it wasn't until most of the Manhattan project was done, that the government even CONSIDERED using nuke for generation. Advance 15 years, and you'll see that you and I spent an incredible amount (and I mean REALLY incredible) on funding development and installation of nuclear generating plants, as well as rural electrification and a really big grid. Development of large scale power plans has NEVER been without subsidiary support- it is an economy of scale much larger than calculable profit. Unfortunately, while nuclear power is very low in cost per KWH, that cost is NOT static... eventually, it will be overrun by the cost of dismantling, containing, and storage (not disposal) of 'hot' waste. Not saying that I don't like it, but it's reality... nothing is free. I can tell you this much: Run a nuke plant at full bore... now shut it down, totally. Cost to operate that nuke plant, when down, totally invalidates it's economic fortitude... you still need containment crews, security, and maintenance. When the windmills stop, you need lights. What I'm saying here... is that aside from burning wood, windmills predate EVERY other kind of modern power we have. Most people call it 'alternative' energy, but historically, it's seriously not. Long before the Dutch ground wheat and pumped water out of their fields, boats sailed the Mediterranean... and my grandpa got his water for free. |
Posted By: DonBC
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 11:44am
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I recently watched a documentary program on TV on energy solutions in some European countries. A farmer in Holland bought his own wind mill and said that his investment was paid off in 5 years. He also had a large pig operation and was composing the manure and collecting the methane gas to power a large generator and was selling that power to utility as well. He was getting double value out of the grain he was feeding his pigs. I also expect that energy rates are a lot higher there than most of North America. ------------- Jack of all trades, master of none |
Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 11:55am
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Thank you for reminding me, Dave, you touched on another concern that needs to be considered when building a wind farm... the grid. There is one wind farm just completed, in Minnesota, I believe, that is ready to go, but has no current link to the grid. The alignment with the grid requires the same robust planning and approvals as the wind farms themselves, and is not on overnight process. Anyone involved with a windfarm in their area should confirm the developer or utility has a plan in place to utilize the power the windfarm can generate. ------------- "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain |
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 12:18pm
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We are probably bordering on being in the wrong bucket, leaning toward political. In a nay case, Dave, I am not anti windmill, or anti developing any of our resources. I am in the "drill baby drill" crowd, but still, we need to be environmentally conscientious as reason dictates. Abandoned mills IS a concern:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/02/wind_energys_ghosts_1.html - http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/02/wind_energys_ghosts_1.html ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2010 at 9:37pm
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The politics and economics of the first- and second-generation California 'farms' has much more to do with politics and economics, than technology. Consider the voracious appetite for Colorado River electricity and water that goes to support the bankrupt state, and it's not hard to see why they're so messed-up. I'm not sure who's worse, but Illinois and California are definitely holding a competition. The Hawaii installation is a load-calculation fiasco in-and-of itself. There are THREE states that have their OWN electrical utility grid administration, sovereign from DOE. Those states are Alaska, Hawaii, and Texas. Hawaii being pretty populous, but from an AC grid perspective, very small, and load-wise, rather volatile. Using high-volume synchronous generation there is risky at best, because neither the load, nor the source is dense or distributed enough to be substantially self-stabilizing. Having substantial wind-farms along the island makes regulation (frequency and voltage) a nightmare, especially prior to the latest generation of high-power inverter-based multi-megawatt machines. Grid connection IS an important consideration. For those of us that live in states that DON'T have net-metering laws, and don't have utility board support of individuals who own their own private mills, the economics are heavily outclassed. If I were to install my own personal mills, and desire to 'sell off' my excess, I would have to register as an "Independant Power Producer", identify my capacity, then constantly state my market price, and ALWAYS have that capacity available, which means if I have 250kw of griddable power, I'd need some other form of backup capacity. Big utility companies HAVE that capacity by virtue of fossil plants... NG and coal. Big utilities can also offset lack of wind output by 're-buying' at a higher rate, and eating the difference in cost. Many people who get 'sucked into' the concept of buying small 'grid tie' systems don't have a clue how little return they'll actually get... and that's why I noted that if I had a pair, I'd use 'em strictly to heat water... I couldn't SELL that energy (especially under IPP designation) and make enough to offset the propane I'd otherwise burn... but if I"m heating water when it's -25 and a 35mph NW wind, I can certainly offset that fuel, and THEN some. And as it sits, I STILL have three emergency generators here to keep power to the house when our primary utility lines get ripped down by storms. When we get a wintertime outage (and we usually get about 3.5 weeks of accumulated outage each year), I shut down the burner on my furnace... and the backup generator engines (which have no radiators) take over by sending what would otherwise be waste heat... into heat exchangers and hydronic grids in the house. And with that in mind, I don't have a bend against drilling... I just like utilizing all my available resources to best available benefit, and for some reason, this farm has LOTS of wind. But anyway, his question was about the whoosh... and my answer is... no- the new, large, slow-speed turbines with closed pylon bases... effectively silent. |
Posted By: JohnCO
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2010 at 12:17am
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Thanks Dave for your comments. Very educational.
------------- "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer" Allis Express participant |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2010 at 12:44am
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The Bournes factory in Ames used to buy virtually no electricity from the city, which annoyed the city fathers immensely. The had four natural gas powered generators which they ran three at a time to provide factory power, heat, and cooling. There were no radiators and the exhaust was also water jacketed. The oil was probably also water cooled to gather that heat. They used electricity to run the factory, and the engine heat to heat and cool the factory with adsorption refrigeration for summer time cooling. It was odd to see that factory covering maybe 200,000 square feet with a 3 kva pole pig for its electric service. By using virtually all the "waste" btus from the engines they got really good use of their fuel penny. With utilities that don't do net metering, but accept small scale generation the best they will pay is their avoided fuel cost on the outbound meter (they usually require two meters each ratcheted to measure power flow in only one direction) often a mere 3 cents a KWH. When you figure in maintenance and cost of acquisition, no power plant can produce electricity that cheap. The only thing that has a slight chance of paying is to generate just enough to stop the incoming meter, thereby displacing the energy that you would buy at 8 to 15 cents a KWH and its really hard to compete with BLM hydrogeneration in the Pacific NW or along the upper Missouri River. The wind generators are actually pretty much of an albatross on the power companies because they have to keep steam plants of the same power capacity spinning ready to supply customer loads when the wind changes and it changes a lot, that part is quite predictable. How its going to change is a real problem, the available weather models do poorly on the details in the Plantary Boundary Layer, expecting the conditions to be uniform over a typical grid of 40 km and computing once an hour. Worse some of the models compute x and y components on different sides of the grid and don't admit how they came up with the x and y pairing. I need to work on that by my client isn't paying much and I've been busy moving. Maybe next month I'll invent something better or apply something better to the data extraction software. Distribuited generation has been the nemesis to power system stability until the advent of the electronic inverter that can be forced to follow the local power line, so it won't warp the frequency control in its area. Connection to the grid often limits wind systems, I know of one locally owned group in Iowa that can't run all the turbines at the same time because they don't have a strong enough utility connection. And I see the field near here completely shut down on some days of NWS wind forecasts no more than 20 mph. Loading the wind machine with resistance heating tends to work poorly because the wind machine output is highly variable but if it holds constant voltage, the resistance load is also constant which the machine can't supply unless seriously derated. Polk County Iowa tried that at their county road department 25 years ago. I was asked to bid on the engineering study, but they wanted a bid bond which most consulting engineers don't do. I suspect a wind turbine vendor was the only bidder (the request for bids book took an hour to read, I may still have it) and so found the wind data good for wind generation. The installed wind machine lasted two or three years but when it left it left completely, there's not even divots in the yard where it sat. Independent data that I checked indicated the average wind there was too low to be economical and I think some independent wind machines like at the Nevada IA Schools have proven that except that they were donated to the schools. Putting wind energy to stored heat, the voltage needs to be allowed to vary with the wind speed so the load power can vary as well. Gerald J. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2010 at 8:39am
EXACTLY! And there's a 'good' side to limitation of small-scale generation- it means the large-scale generation network stays STABLE... so while it seems unjust to green-types who'd like to take up the 'stick-it-to-the-man' attitude with a net metering system, it means the utility power system is adequately loaded and regulated.
With synchronous generation, that is exactly the case. The latest generations of synchronous mills used rapid pitch and yaw to try to maintain a constant output on one big AC generator, but all these latest machines I've had coming through run multiple smaller DC generator heads on a gang gearbox, and a megawatt of IGBTs in an inverter cabinet in the base. Having stability AND scale is the key... having enough mills spread out over large geographical areas, more than enough to carry all load, is the recipie that will make large-scale windpower economically feasible. In comparison, a nuclear plant is the same way- you can't make a KW-class nuclear plant- The reaction STARTS with one critical mass, anything smaller won't fire.
Exactly! rather than attempting to govern the mill to run at a constant output in a varying wind, you vary the LOAD with respect to available WIND. I've had a couple of guys ask me how I intend to manage such a load... and the answer is pretty easy- you take a saturation-controlled transformer (a welding transformer that uses 'bucking' coils) and modulate the bucking current based on wind speed... and put the output straight to heating elements. ;-) Dickenson County shows much better on wind models than rural Scott, but being on this essentially 'bald' knob gives me days where Ann and I can't even go outside to work in the yard. If you hear of any sub-100kw class machines that've been taken down, Gerald, please let me know... I'll pour a base for it, and piers for my Rohn SSV, all on the same day. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2010 at 10:01am
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Champion Seed at Ellsworth tossed up a small one last year and I rarely see it runing. Many times when its not runing I drive by and see a ladder up to the base of the tower. I've not seen it spin except in a really high wind for a couple months. I presume it has self destructed repeatedly. Story City has one without a gear box. Its had its problems too with at least one replacement of the generator in its first year of use. There used to be a Grumman wind machine just off north Dayton Road NE of Ames hooked to the REC, but I've not noticed it for the last couple years. I think its been taken down. I hardly ever saw it spin. I've not tried wind seriously, though I do have the propeller for a small wind generator in the barn. I did try an air heating solar collector for a few years. Got me about 100,000 BTU per sunny day whether I needed heat or not from a 24 x 8 collector, 192 square feet. From that experiment, I concluded insulation paid far better than the active system. Gerald J. |
Posted By: LouSWPA
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2010 at 10:06am
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Anyways Brad, I would make sure to account for dismantling costs, even if the owner goes belly up! ------------- I am still confident of this; I will see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord; be strong and take heart and wait for the Lord. Ps 27 |
Posted By: Dave in il
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2010 at 10:56am
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I mistakenly said that the attorney representing our local Road Commisioners in negotiations with the Windmill companies said, "they will promise anything a RC wants to hear and try to weasle out of it during and after construction".
That was a quote by a RC who had already had windmills built in his township that was less than happy with how it turned out.
The attorney working with our group has negotiated money upfront for road upgrades and to repair damage, as well as time tables and penalties if they don't follow through.
Sorry.
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Posted By: Dusty MI
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2010 at 11:09am
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I have come to the conclusion that many attorneys will tell a potential client what he, the attorney, thinks the client wants to hear. Dusty ------------- 917 H, '48 G, '65 D-10 series III "Allis Express" |
Posted By: john(MI)
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2010 at 11:28am
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Brad, Here is an article about one over here. It is a couple years old. It also identifies the municipalities. You may want to get with them and find out any pros and cons of the whole deal. Why reinvent the wheel?
http://www.mlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2008/03/states_first_commercial_windmi.html - http://www.mlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2008/03/states_first_commercial_windmi.html ------------- D14, D17, 5020, 612H, CASE 446 |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2010 at 11:46am
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Here's a thought for really deep thinkers. I don't know what comes first-------wind or weather-----but they are tied together. No one worried about climate change when there wasn't so much oil and coal being burned. We are now realizing that the emissions from that burning MAY have some affect on weather. Now, if we build enough wind generators, will we also slow down overall winds enough to also affect weather?? Maybe, if enough are built in Iowa and Minnesota, the rain amounts in the corn belt changes. Something to think about!!! ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2010 at 12:21pm
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Probably not as much near the surface wind change as if the prairies were covered in forest. Gerald J. |
Posted By: firebrick43
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2010 at 1:43pm
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I have one of the largest windfarms in the USA just 6 miles north of me, in benton and white county indiana(actually 3 companies/farms but all are within site of each other) and they are still building. The is no noise problems, I have been up to the base of several and can't hear the blades over the wind. The companies in benton county have treated the counties residents very well. The repaired the road to a condition far better than when they started, even blacktopping some original chip and seal roads, and reconstructed some gravel roads using paving machines to lay down the gravel. Very nice!. The contracts there are set up that they will return everything to original condition (take down tower, take up gravel lanes, ect) if they decommission them and don't install a new tower/head within a year. They even pay the farmers some money that for some reason or another skip them and don't install a tower on their field(usually a small field to close to another field with a tower) The only problem we have is the lights. My wife refers to it as the "red light district" Before they synchronized them they were insanely annoying, but now they are not to bad, still? One group of them they have just the perimeter towers lights on, for some reason the other two groups they haven't done that but they are still building there right now. They are also considering a farm in pulaski county (Dads farm is included in it) but it is on hold now as the company some how missed the fact that it is a military training area for grissom air force base. |
Posted By: firebrick43
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2010 at 1:47pm
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I have one of the largest windfarms in the USA just 6 miles north of me, in benton and white county indiana(actually 3 companies/farms but all are within site of each other) and they are still building. The is no noise problems, I have been up to the base of several and can't hear the blades over the wind. The companies in benton county have treated the counties residents very well. The repaired the road to a condition far better than when they started, even blacktopping some original chip and seal roads, and reconstructed some gravel roads using paving machines to lay down the gravel. Very nice!. The contracts there are set up that they will return everything to original condition (take down tower, take up gravel lanes, ect) if they decommission them and don't install a new tower/head within a year. They even pay the farmers some money that for some reason or another skip them and don't install a tower on their field(usually a small field to close to another field with a tower) The only problem we have is the lights. My wife refers to it as the "red light district" Before they synchronized them they were insanely annoying, but now they are not to bad, still? One group of them they have just the perimeter towers lights on, for some reason the other two groups they haven't done that but they are still building there right now. They are also considering a farm in pulaski county (Dads farm is included in it) but it is on hold now as the company some how missed the fact that it is a military training area for grissom air force base. I looked into a personal small tower and it would work out well financially if we had net metering but Indiana law states that REMC's are exempt from net metering so they will only purchase it at 3-3.5 cents a kw and then I have to purchase all electricity at 13.5cents a kwhr which make a very poor investment. The law states that investor owned utilities have to provide net metering with is a pointless law as the investor owned utilities are in the larger town/cities that would not be very effective or even allow windmill in the area. |
Posted By: E7018
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2010 at 5:20pm
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Gerald, do you have any experience around the Nevada school wind generators? The extension service had a meeting there and talked about wind generation. They promised a tour of the school's generators. We went hoping to learn something. The custodian opened the door and let us look up inside of the tower. End of tour. They are just induction motors that don't make power til the speed reaches synchronous. 250 hp motors. |
Posted By: Gerald J.
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2010 at 6:26pm
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Only observing from the road. One spent a year out of commission, I think due to lightning. They were donated to the school system so they don't have the fundamental cost of ownership but still I hear are marginal with the maintenance in breaking even. Kind of like having a pickup for work tasks and a hybrid for going to church and after groceries. It looks good, but it doesn't really save money in the long run. The induction motor style gets around the synchronization problem but requires a close watch on wind speed and power transfer direction because the motor and fan part is just as happy as a motor as a generator. Gerald J. |
Posted By: DaveKamp
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2010 at 11:18pm
Actually, there's quite a bit going on everywhere... doesn't look like it's having much impact, but look at the windpower production and capacity statistics: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/epm_sum.html And look who's got the second-highest capacity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_States Most of these new units are inverter-based, so if they're spinning, they're generating. And you noted 'environmental issues'... FWIW... Al Gore's correlation of carbon dioxide 'greenhouse effect' and global warming is total hogwash. He correlates the rise of CO2 content to the rise of terrestrial temperature, His comment 'there's minor problems, but the problem is' is passing off a fact that TOTALLY DEBUNKS his allegation... scientists doing core samples agree that there IS a correlation... but it's TOTALLY BACKWARDS: Rise in terrestrial temperature occurs BEFORE CO2 concentrations. Obviously, burning fossil fuels upsets our environment- carbon trapped within the earth DOES get ejected, but that which we disburse into the environment on a daily basis, over a year's time, is a fart in a hurricane compared to just ONE good volcanic eruption. And to get off the subject, but on the same rant: The 'environmental' leadership we've received, particularly from CARB, has turned into an incredible fiasco. Over the last eight years or so, we've gone from diesel pickups that get 18mpg, down to an incredible 6mpg... all because regulations mandated a 'lowering of particulate emissions' based on PPM PER GALLON BURNED. Great- The day it rolls off the lot, my company truck emits 40% LESS particulate emissions per gallon than the truck of 1998. Unfortunately, it uses THREE TIMES AS MANY GALLONS to do the same job. Oh, and it costs four times as much to maintain, it breaks down twenty times-as-often, and... the 'scrubbing' systems go belly-up after about two tanks of the 'mandated' bio-fuel. And then we have regulatory agencies busting guys who exercise the initiative to use genuine recycling techniques to burn used cooking grease in their old diesel cars. Talk about punishing the good-guy... Just so nobody gets the wrong idea... I'm not 'for' or 'against' any modicum of modern power... I believe that a guy should be able to use whatever resources he has at his disposal, to the best of his advantage... which means, if he's got a manure pond and a digester, and burns the methane in an old Waukesha to light his farm, so be it... or turn his Dodge into a grease-burner, that's cool too... and nobody has a right to tell him he can't be more self-sufficient. Now, if he wants to set up a feedlot in the middle of a city, it's a different story... but if the city decides to 'annex' the area, and his feedlot is there, it ain't HIS problem, and they shouldn't be able to stop him. Take a whiff, and enjoy the smell of industry. It's a messy world, ain't it? |