On a B allis
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21135
Printed Date: 31 Oct 2024 at 11:25pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: On a B allis
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Subject: On a B allis
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 9:17am
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On a B. Can you remove the standard rear axles from the final drive housings without removing the big nut and wheel from the axle first?
The 5 hole flanged axles use the same seal, bearing and cup and snap ring as the standard axle on both the B and the C and come out and go in the same way as a standard axle. It would appear that the wheel on the axle would be the same as a flanged axle with the wheel bolted on. From the seal back to the shim washers, washer and capscrew it all stacks up as being the same.
A bit unhandy I admit. But. I was thinking of assembling a bolt on 5 bolt adapter hub together with the standard axle and treating it like a flanged axle on a B. By assembly I mean welding the hub to the axle fixing the worn out tapered spline issue.
I bet if DickL reads this he will know the answer.
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Replies:
Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 9:49am
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DickL has posted pics of the B & C shafts side by side, and they are not interchangable. If nobody posts this pic by tonight when I get home, I'll post it. In this case, a picture is indeed worth a thousand words. ------------- "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain |
Posted By: ACJohn
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 11:17am
| The C axle shaft is longer. My B (adjustable front axle) came with 5 bolt flanges that are splined onto the axle shaft just like the larger (arched axle) wheel centers. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 12:14pm
| Yes as stated the C axle is longer. If you look at the final drive behind the hub on both the B and C side by side you will see the casting that the seals seat into are out farther on the C than on the B. |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 1:33pm
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I thought avoiding answering the QUESTION was reserved for the politix forum. Please read my post again and try to answer my only question. Thanks Another question.
Does the big seal and big axle bearing stay in the housing when you pull a flanged axle on a B that has a flanged axle or on a C ?
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Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 1:44pm
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I know they do on a CA. ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 1:55pm
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Why would you want me to reread your post? Do you think I could understand it any better reading it the second time? If I had understood it in the first place I would have had to tell you that I didn't know. Now what would that do to me reputation? Gee Whiz |
Posted By: BrettPhillips
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 4:49pm
| I think "Yes" is the answer. |
Posted By: wigtrain
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 5:27pm
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The answer to your question is "technically yes". !!! The problem is with the seal. The seal riides in a smooth ring that is pressed onto the axle shaft and is outboard of the bearing. The bearing inner ring also usually is a slight press. I have taken several apart as you ask but have always damaged the seal in the process as the bearing wants to attempt to pull the seal by it's ID. Then there is the issue of assembly. On a B it's usually best to press the bearingi onto the axle, then insert the axle into the outer race that is already pressed into the housing. Then the seal goes in next. This allows easy setting of the end play of the bearings without the weight of the outer hub. I would suggest that you try to repair the hub and axle first. Liquid steel does a wonderful job when everything is clean. Many John Deere 440B skidders have their hubs held on with liquid steel in this manner. I was just forced to disassemble one of my B axles as you suggest. I couldn't take the hub off because I had put it on years ago with liquid steel. It took a 20 ton jack pushing on the inside of the axle before things stared to move. The bearing destroyed the seal on it's way out. I was then able to press the hub off the axle after it was off the tractor. If the spline is worn taking things apart should be easy. My suggestion is that you try a dry assembly before you start welding. You'll have a very good idea of the problem involved. Good luck ------------- Jim Wiggin |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 5:30pm
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Good enough. Now I can get serious about repairing some worn out 40 and 41 B final drive assemblies. I always figured that once the tapered splines on the axel or hub got real bad it was junk iron. Now I have to see what the welding experts have to offer. I don't think the B 5 bolt adapter hubs or the axles are cast iron.
If I remember right there is a 38 B in the Haymaker Museum that has the hubs welded to the axles.
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Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 8:44pm
B Normal, 5 bolt B, and C in that order. Whatever your question is, here's what all three look like side by side courtesy of DickL from a post a long time ago.
 ------------- "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain |
Posted By: Rick of HopeIN
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 9:14pm
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I salvaged the standard B setup with a new seal ring from Dick L. then I ground some off the back of the casting to get it to slide down a bit more. After about a year I noticed them popping again. Now I am running with aluminum shims between the splines and that has held a few years. I also used a hex locknut from Fastenal so I can run it down with a regular socket. Not one of the better features of the std B. The C did it right. ------------- 1951 B, 1937 WC, 1957 D14, -- Thanks and God Bless |
Posted By: Brad MI
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 9:24pm
| Hey Dick, that looks like my shop floor! lol |
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 9:30pm
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i have welded up the standard B axle shaft and recut the splines with a die grinder. THats when they were really trashed.. I fthey are just worn less than 1/16 inch, you can grind the back of the hub and then press it on further and use a washer under the nut... just for info, i have also welded splines inside the hub. it is cas steel, not cast iron. You can weld the hub with 7018 rod. Recutting the splines by hand it a trick !! ------------- Like them all, but love the "B"s. |
Posted By: Dick L
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 5:48am
| Ya Brad, that is your picture. I never had the B axle with the bolts. I put a picture with the B and C side by side a long time ago. I looked for the picture yesterday and couldn't find it. You the man Brad. |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 9:18am
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Thanks again for the encouragement to go on with this axle/hub repair issue. Many of the first Bs equiped with the straight, tall spindle, adjustable front axle and the 5 bolt splined adapter hubs and reversable wheels have had a problem with loose fitting worn axle and hub splines. Basic junk iron when run to death loose.
I have been kicking around the idea of welding the worn adapter hub and axle stub together and treating it like the B one piece "Flanged Axle" pictured above and making them useable again.
The long B flanged axle pictured above was used on the later Bs that had the deep dished reversable C hub. I believe the length was necessary to allow clearance between the deep dished hub and the B final drive housing when set inward. The seal runs on the spacer coller pressed on the axle. The outboard part of the coller is painted in the picture.
Try to visualize the splined 5 bolt adapter on the standard B axle stub and you can see where I'm comming from and why I think it should work.
The final in housing assembly should then be the same as for the late Bs with the flanged axle or the C. (Sombody said the C "Did it right") The bearing has to be a slip fit on the axle to allow assembly. The seal also has to be in the housing before the flanged axle is stabbed.
Seeing the early 40s Bs with the adjustable axle and the adapter hub options at shows has been a rather rare occurance for me. Several of the ones I have seen have wheel shake problems.
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Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 9:29am
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Wigtrain
I like your info on Liquid Steel. Does it have a trade name? I'm not a welder but I can get things clean and mix epoxy. It it like "Moglice" or something like that?
BTW Your description of problems with future disassembly is helpful.
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Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 9:51am
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In looking at the Picture again. If a spacer coller was made to fit the C flanged axle that would move the seal running surface inboard it would allow it to be used in a B final drive housing. I do see a problem with the new location of the bearing. The OD of the stock C axle looks to be to small in this area.
I have a C axle out to check the OD.
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Posted By: ACJohn
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 10:49am
| GBACBFan- My B had 5 bolt flanges that are splined onto the (your left image) standard B axle shaft...yet another variation? |
Posted By: GBACBFan
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 12:34pm
I know what you're talking about, John. I only have two of these that are real good. The pic is one that's wallowed out some. Good ones are hard to find.
 ------------- "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." - Mark Twain |
Posted By: CTuckerNWIL
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 3:36pm
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Ken, here is a link to the Moglice website. You would want their structural alignment material. It can be used to solve the bad spline problem but is also removable. It takes about 600 degrees to soften and then you can pull it apart. I have used this stuff to remount a flywheel on a 25,000 ton forge press and it stayed until the company could run enough parts ahead to allow downtime to make needed repairs(about six months). http://www.moglice.com/ - http://www.moglice.com/ The biggest drawback might be the expense. The containers we got cost about $100 I think and it always said to mix the entire batch. No measuring devices given to break it up into smaller batches. That might be enough to do about 6 tractors both sides. ------------- http://www.ae-ta.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.ae-ta.com Lena 1935 WC12xxx, Willie 1951 CA6xx Dad bought new, 1954WD45 PS, 1960 D17 NF |
Posted By: Ken in Texas
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2010 at 8:20am
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Sounds like Moglice is some tuff stuff, CTuck. The cost may be what prevents folks like us from useing it. It may be worth checking into if small job repair kits are available.
Good picture of what looks like worn Splined Adapter Hub. AC part #210318 used with Reversable shallow dished Wheel part #210105 on B tractors B18055 and up. Probably first used with the Arched Adjustable Axle in 1939 then with the straight adjustable in 40 and up to widen the rear tread to 60 inches
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