Allis-Chalmers Prototypes
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21073
Printed Date: 22 Jan 2025 at 8:38pm
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Topic: Allis-Chalmers Prototypes
Posted By: AllisChalmers37
Subject: Allis-Chalmers Prototypes
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 4:05pm
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I have seen several topics that talk about AC having several pictures of their prototype tractors. I would be very interested in seeing some of these. The only prototype that I knew AC had any pictures of was their fuel cell tractor.
I've heard of them having sketches and photos of the tractors that would replace the 8000 series but unfortunately they never got around to producing them. ------------- 1937 WC, 1950 CA, 1959 D14, 1967 190XT, 2006 Ram 3500 |
Replies:
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 5:45pm
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I hope this works. I've scanned a 26 year old Polaroid photo taken in the spring of 1984. I wanted to call this tractor the 9025, but marketing would have had the last say. It had a 643 cubic inch Komatsu engine that was derated to 225 PTO hp. It put out more than that as you pulled the rpms down from 2200. It had the rear end from an 8070 with mandatory FWD to handle the extra power. It also had the Power Director transmission from the 4W-305. The rear tires were the new (at that time) 20.8-42's. Notice the filler panel between the stock 8000 Series cab and front side panel. With the sharp torque rise, it was a stomping, strong tractor in the field. It would easily outperform a 4W-220, and it was a lot, lot cheaper to build than the 4w-220. Unfortunately, the banks wanted the cash from selling the Farm Equipment Division to Deutz. I left Allis in the fall of 1984 as I saw no future with the Krauts. Selling air-cooled engines to American farmers was going to be an uphill battle, and closing West Allis would likely mean expensive German drivetrains. The story I got from friends that went to Kansas City with Deutz was that new tractors were designed using Deutz air-cooled engines and drivetrains from ZF. These would have been assembled in Kansas City. Prototypes were built and tested, but shortly before production, the accountants added up the costs and killed the tractor. The rest is history.  I forgot to say, we referred to it as "Big Foot." The operator standing there was a big guy at 6'-4". ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 5:51pm
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I sure like hearing some of that history. Thanks 427435 for the picture and info. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: AllisChalmers37
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 6:02pm
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It's a shame they went under. Never will be another. I bet that tractor will out perform any John Deere or IH of the day. ------------- 1937 WC, 1950 CA, 1959 D14, 1967 190XT, 2006 Ram 3500 |
Posted By: David Gibson (OH)
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 6:21pm
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Thank you for sharing your story and picture. That is very interesting. ------------- David Gibson http://www.darkecountysteam.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.darkecountysteam.com 1956 WD45 |
Posted By: Wil M (NEIA)
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 6:30pm
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Norm Swinfords 2 books cover a lot of different prototype tractors. ------------- "Yet there are soulless men whose hand and brain tear down what time will never give again." Anderson M Scruggs |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 8:17pm
| Thanks 427435 !!!! That is an awesome tractor , wish it coulda went to production but no money no tractor !!! Hope you stick around as you definetly have some great info and I bet alot of good stories we all would love to hear ; Thanks again ,; was Deutz planning on building a factory in Kansas City or using the Gleaner plant for prooduction in Independece ? |
Posted By: Brian Jasper co. Ia
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 8:51pm
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So how did "Big Foot" compare to the 8095 in Norm Swinford's book? Norm talks about that one as being a "Locomotive on Wheels". ------------- "Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford |
Posted By: omahagreg
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 8:54pm
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Thanx for the story and photo! That is one nice looking machine! ------------- Greg Kroeker 1950 WD with wide front and Freeman trip loader |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 10:26pm
That's the same tractor. I figured that the number should be 9000 Series as it was over 200 hp. The 8000's were supposed to be 100 to 199 hp. Considering the 8050 was 150 hp, the 8070 was 170 hp, etc. why would you call a 225 hp tractor an 8095?? It could have been put into production in the fall of 1984 and would have been a very reliable and strong tractor. It also wouldn't have taken much tooling money, but with Deutz coming in, nobody cared. At that time there were no conventional tractors over 200 pto hp, and it would have brought some attention and credibility to the rest of our tractors. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Brian Jasper co. Ia wrote:Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 10:28pm
I had left by then, but they probably would have assembled tractors at the combine plant. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: Nathan (SD)
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2010 at 2:01am
| Was there any small differences between the 8095 prototypes or were they all the same mechanically? Always wondered why there was more than one built? |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2010 at 9:21am
Typically, several were built. Some were used for field evaluation while others were put on various tests at the proving grounds or tractor lab at the West Allis plant. We had a serious of standardized, accelerated tests that would pretty well sort out a tractor's reliability. The field testing was for the odd thing or two that the lab tests might not catch and to also determine actual field performance. I don't recall any differences between the prototypes, but that was a long time ago. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2010 at 10:56am
| In the real world (now 25 years later) it would have needed a heavier duty/larger front FWA axle(gears, king pins, etc) to handle the HP and extra weight. While 8070FWA's are not a problem, they are often times worn out at 5 to 6000 hrs if used heavily. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2010 at 11:02am
It was a heavier axle than the 8070 FWD. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: TREVMAN
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 12:26pm
| I dont understand why they would have used a komatsu engine when they had a 516cid and 731cid engine at their disposal. I'm sure somebody as crazy as me somewhere has installed an N7 combine engine in a 8070, that would have been a tractor...TREV |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 12:41pm
| I believe ALLIS was behind on design and really didnt have money for keeping the 301,426 + 516 in production ; the Harvey factory was getting old along with the equipment and it woulda been a huge investment in a dog eat dog world and it was cheaper to buy a ready made, bolt in big hp. motor ; |
Posted By: Reeseholler
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 3:02pm
| cool lookin machine. always good to hear stories from the workers |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 5:11pm
You are correct. The biggest problem that the tractor division was facing in the 70's were the Harvey engines. They had been pushed to their limits and reliability wasn't good. That's why the 8000 Series were all derated from the last 7000's. The 516 (old, old design) had both a high cost and a high fuel consumption. The 731 (we called it the 12 liter in engineering) was really expensive and big. It was a de-strocked version of a 13.8 liter engine (844 cu. in.). Harvey spent a lot of money (engineering and tooling) on engines for the construction business and for the truck market back then. The ATD (Allis Chalmers Tractor Division) business was taken for granted. The transfer prices to ATD for the engines were also high. We could have bought Cummins, Cat, Perkins, or the Komatsu engines cheaper. Farm sales were down in the early 80's and ATD was losing money. I had held discussions with Komatsu and could have bought engines at a low enough price to have put ATD back into the black at the reduced volumes we were building at the time. Again, management just wanted the cash from selling the Farm Equipment Division to Deutz. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: TREVMAN
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 5:27pm
| Thanks for the post and information Mark. My Dad bought a new 190xt in 1966 the year I was born. We had many Harvey 301's, and 426's until 1996. Never had a problem with any of them, didnt find them hard on fuel, nor were any of them overworked or undermaintained. I am a purist and an Allis nut, but I understand the economy of scale and the enormous cost of tooling engine production. I realize that is why Cummins is in everything...Was Allis planning any new engines? Thanks, TREV. |
Posted By: DougG
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 6:15pm
| I just bought a 1982 ALLIS CHALMERS Annual Report off Ebay and in 82 the Ag Division + Material Division lost $152 million and the finance expese was 89 mil [ i hope im reading that right ]!!! They were talking that the AG Division was really holding the Company back and slowly sinking them ; after through the 70,s it was the AG Divsion that made all the money and kept things rolling ; they were really banking on the KILNnGAS project to make a bunch of dough but ended up costing alot ; and AC corpoate was creating new companies, combining small one to create new divisions and that all cost $$$$ ; The only thing that was making money at that time was the American Air Filter Co that they owned , but it just didnt make enough !!!! |
Posted By: SIMPLICITY
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 6:31pm
| DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE THE (PROTOTYPE) TRACTOR IS ? WAS THERE ONLY ONE OR WERE THERE OTHERS? |
Posted By: daughter#1
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 8:15pm
       Here are some photos of prototypes that we have. Also we included a concept photo of the 6000 series. P.S. - Dean, IA likes to bale with the 180 prototype. |
Posted By: JimIA
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 10:54pm
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The One-Sixty industrial prototype is fun to rake with also! Jim |
Posted By: DSeries4
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 11:17pm
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What is that last pic? Is that one of those compressor things that were used at the proving grounds?
I must say, I do prefer the design of the production 6000s better. ------------- '49 G, '54 WD45, '55 CA, '56 WD45D, '57 WD45, '58 D14, '59 D14, '60 D14, '61 D15D, '66 D15II, '66 D21II, '67 D17IV, '67 D17IVD, '67 190XTD, '73 620, '76 185, '77 175, '84 8030, '85 6080 |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 11:23pm
The reason the finance expense was so high was that Corporate would insist that the Tractor Division keep producing tractors even when the field inventory was glutted. The banks would advance money (loans) against every tractor that left the plant (sent to a nearby storage yard). That kept the VIP's in bonus money and the company afloat for a few more months. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 11:26pm
If policy was followed, they should have been destroyed or any prototype parts removed and destroyed. Much of the tractor was stock 8070 and those parts might have been sold. The engine was likely returned to Komatsu. The guy that would know for sure, is Larry Gruenberger. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 11:26pm
Yes. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: AllisChalmers37
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 8:05am
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Here's the proving grounds video. It's odd to see the old D21s and the rest of the D series being stripped down and used as compressors to put the 7000 series through it's paces.
[TUBE]LzacjZHkjQo[/TUBE] ------------- 1937 WC, 1950 CA, 1959 D14, 1967 190XT, 2006 Ram 3500 |
Posted By: Matt MN
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 8:45am
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That whole collection is great to look at..
I believe that compressor thing was the first D19 diesel prototype then was converted to a compressor? ------------- Unless your are the lead horse the scenery never changes!! |
Posted By: clovis
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 9:20am
| Awesome thread!!!! Thanks for sharing, 427435!! |
Posted By: Nathan (SD)
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 10:12am
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This is for 427435. They weren't totally scrapped.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21169515@N08/3561365002/ - http://www.flickr.com/photos/21169515@N08/3561365002/
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Posted By: Hurst
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 12:51pm
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Looking at the testing ground videos, I want to know how they didn't figure out the 7000 series side panels would pop off so easily if the clips got stretched at all... lol Hurst ------------- 1979 Allis Chalmers 7000 5800 Hours |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 1:17pm
That brings back some old memories. There's a reason the 7000 and 8000 tractors had robust drivetrains. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 1:19pm
It's great to hear a prototype survived. I suppose the "policies" weren't worried about so much with Deutz people around. How did you acquire it?? Have you used it and, if so, how did it perform for you?? ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 1:21pm
The rubber snubbers were new then. They are also cheap and easy to replace when the rubber gets tired. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: Hurst
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 3:07pm
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My 7000 has the metal clips on it, but that one clip of the open station 7000 going over what looks like utility poles half burried in the ground reminds me of what my 7000 did when I found a hidden trench while disc mowing a couple summers ago, except my left hood panel popped off and went under the rear wheel. One of those things you can kind of laugh about now, but sure made you sick when it happened. Hurst ------------- 1979 Allis Chalmers 7000 5800 Hours |
Posted By: Chris WI
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 4:41pm
| Mark, it is really neat to here what was going on behind the scenes at Allis. you have some neat stories to tell. I look forward to more in the future, also if there is more people that worked at allis it would be neat to here their stories as well. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 5:04pm
My bad. Mixing tractors up again. Alzheimer's is a terrible thing!!!! LOL As the video showed, the rough course test was rough on stuff. And remember the tractor was landing on concrete or the timbers------not earth. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: JimIA
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 5:08pm
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There is more than one 8095 out there. One is in Menomonie Wisconsin, this one has had a 426 put back it in. The one pictured above belongs to the Hunley's and I think they have a second one as well. Someone correct me if I am incorrect. Thanks Jim |
Posted By: Jack(Ky)
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 5:55pm
| Well, I have read on this forum before that the Hunleys have two them and still use them some. The way I have heard it told is they had an AC dealership and farmed too and they had the tractors testing them when AC sold out and they just kept them. I may have the details mixed up that is what I was thinking anyway. They are in Austin In. I think.JP |
Posted By: daughter#1
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 9:26pm
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MarK: You are only two hours North of us. There are alot of Allis in the neighborhood if you would like to come down and see we would be glad to have you visit. We have other items that you might be interested in seeing. Kelly & Sandra Lien |
Posted By: Lonn
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2010 at 7:47am
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Hey 427435. Have you ever considered giving a talk at say like the Rochester Historical Society show. I'm sure they'd be glad to have you. Especially on the years they feature Allis. Or maybe you have done this before. ------------- -- --- .... .- -- -- .- -.. / .-- .- ... / .- / -- ..- .-. -.. . .-. .. -. --. / -.-. .... .. .-.. -.. / .-. .- .--. .. ... - Wink I am a Russian Bot |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2010 at 9:43am
Thanks for the invite. If I head to your neighborhood, I'll PM you first. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2010 at 9:49am
I'm not much of a public speaker, but I see that next year is an "Allis-Chalmers" year. http://www.mhrt.org/ - http://www.mhrt.org/ I'll have to see if I could come up with enough material to make it worth while. ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: JC-WI
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2010 at 11:43am
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Mark, There are many people that are interested in historical artifacts and stories. You happen to posses in your memory of things that happened at A-C. You may or may not have lots of photos or papers, but you need too sit down and write up everything you can remember about what was going on while you were there. Even the things you had learned about their history before you worked for them.
I heard about a Monarch 75 with an Atlas Imperial diesel engine in it that had been sent out to Montana by Allis-Chalmers to be tested out on the Campbell Corporation farm. I called them and the fellow there told me to call another fellow that had worked for them back in the thirties, So I called him and he said he was 98 years old now and did in fact work for them back then, more in the late twenties than the thirties.
He had a sharp memory, He told about running a Holt 120 crawler during grain harvest. It was slow but would pull 10 wagons of wheat at a time from the fields. Said you couldn't go over the hills but had to go around them while loaded. But alas he said when the Monarch showed up, he was driving truck and only seen it a few times but never got to see it work, nor did he know where it went to.
Its stories like that that need to be written down..Like the corporation should have kept a history book or log journal of the happenings of the farm. ..I am supposing the old fellow I talked to some 12 years ago has been in the ground a long time now so I can't go and talk to him anymore to ask questions about anything else like the story he told of a crew of fellows driving 13 Aultman Taylor tractors down from Great Falls Mt. to Forsyth and arriving with only 12...Somebody dissappeared with one.
Write your stories down so the next generations can have some fun reading them and possibly fill in missing pieces of history of "what happened?" .
That also goes for every one else that reads this, you should write the stories for your children or grandchildren and write those that been handed down to you or that you still can ask from grandpa or great great grandpa or grandmom.
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Posted By: 427435
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2010 at 10:58pm
You're right of course. Problem is that sitting down and writing much more than what I do on several forums starts feeling like work. If I want to work, I go out to the garage or yard!!! ------------- Mark B10 Allis, 917 Allis, 7116 Simplicity, 7790 Simplicity Diesel, GTH-L Simplicity Ignorance is curable-----stupidity is not. |
Posted By: clovis
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 12:30am
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Mark, you really should write some of that stuff down. Without it, it will be lost forever. Just a few minutes here and there over the span of a year would amount to quite a bit. Consider writing about the stuff you take for granted, like the tool room, the die room, production problems AC had with certain tractors, the change over to Duetz, etc. It might not seem interesting to you, but it is fascinating to guys like me. FWIW, over on redpower, one of the IH employees wrote in detail about the IH production system, the IH computer system, and building each tractor with the correct options....it was amazing to read!!!!!!!
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Posted By: AllisChalmers37
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2010 at 8:42am
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I would read it!! I love hearing about the history of AC ------------- 1937 WC, 1950 CA, 1959 D14, 1967 190XT, 2006 Ram 3500 |