ATF vs 821XL?
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=207389
Printed Date: 18 Jul 2025 at 2:23am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: ATF vs 821XL?
Posted By: CrestonM
Subject: ATF vs 821XL?
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2025 at 3:26pm
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Does anybody know why Allis specified automatic transmission fluid in the hydraulic and hydrostatic drive systems of combines instead of just using regular 821 hydraulic fluid? Would it be detrimental to use hydraulic fluid instead of automatic transmission fluid? I figure there has to be some reason they did it.
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Replies:
Posted By: steve(ill)
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2025 at 4:15pm
i dont know... but most trans fluids are a 5wt or 10wt oil ... while hydraulic fluids can be 20 wt - 30 wt
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Like them all, but love the "B"s.
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2025 at 5:25pm
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Hydrostatic combine transmissions existed before 821XL was used in A-C machinery. I call 821XL a 10W-30 viscosity and the ATF fluid a 5W or 10W viscosity. Gleaner did switch to the 821XL about 20 or so years ago but there were orifice changes made in some of the hydraulic valves and I'm sure the hydrostatic propulsion system must have some changes too. Make the change at your own risk.
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Posted By: 8070nc
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2025 at 6:50pm
We got a new F2 in 81 and after much use we had to have the hydrostatic rebuilt. The rebuilder suggested we change to 821 fluid. We did. No problems. I now have a L3 I run 821xl equivelent in and no problems. Just my experience
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1984 80780
1957 D14
DES 300 with 25000 engine
616 tractor
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Posted By: SLee(IA)
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2025 at 10:09pm
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Somewhere around 40-50 years ago usually in late summer our dealer would invite all combine owners in and would have a new combine sitting in the shop. There would be a AC guy there (I think they called him a "Block Man"). He would be the guy the dealer called in if there was a mechanical problem they couldn't solve. He would walk us around the combine and point out things to look for so that we could reduce the odds of having problems during harvest. Sorry for the long post. Anyway the question on why use ATF in the hydraulics came up. He said they sell numerous combines into Canada and Hydraulic oil back then would cause problems at -20 to -30 degree temperatures. ATF would flow better there and would also hold up in the heat of wheat harvest in the US. Steve
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Posted By: Lynn Marshall
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2025 at 6:53am
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Actually Steve, the "block man" was more of the go to guy for the dealer when ordering inventory and whole goods. He also was in charge of doing a walk around to check the lots for inventory and corresponding serial numbers. I'm sure that they had other duties as well. The guy you're referring to, I would have called a service representative or service technician.
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Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2025 at 8:05am
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Lynn remembers it well !! The Sales Rep for A-C had a "block" of dealers he was responsible for. He ordered new machinery (and attachments) for his dealers and kept track of inventory to see that something didn't disappear. I doubt that any blockman ever had more than 10 businesses he called on. The Service Reps had more like 25 to 30 dealers they each called on. For the whole state of Iowa there were only four service reps, whereas the sales force had eight or ten people. I remember a true story about a blockman who was taking a particular dealer's inventory from looking out the office window all the time. There was a particular 200 tractor that wasn't in his line of sight from the dealerships window. He asked where it was and was told it was out beyond the shop, and he could drive his car around to see it when he was leaving. Well, he was never fired over this deal, but the story was the tractor had been stripped of many parts. The business was in financial trouble and was on C.O.D. for their parts inventory, so the starter, batteries, tie rods, and on and on were taken from this tractor and sold over the counter to customers. The blockman didn't catch this and months later the business filed for bankruptcy. The 200 tractor was missing many more parts as time went on !! This is why AGCO and Deere and all the others love the multiple stores model of business. They have less dealers to work with, so it takes less blockmen to cover them.
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Posted By: Allis dave
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2025 at 8:38am
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John Deere combines use low visconisty hydraulic oil for their hydrostatic drives. I'm guessing the lower viscosity automatic transmission mgiht have the same purpose.
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Posted By: 55allis
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2025 at 9:22pm
John Deere low viscosity is the very close and better than atf oil…
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1955 AC WD45 diesel with D262 repower, 1949 AC WD45
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Posted By: SLee(IA)
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2025 at 6:53am
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Thanks Lynn and Dr. for correcting me. Yes, it was the Service rep. Steve
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Posted By: Lynn Marshall
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2025 at 7:52am
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Steve, out of curiosity, were you using Mitchell's in Bondurant or Geneser in Granger at that time? Or perhaps someone else? There were quite a few dealers in the state at that time. Today, not so much.
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Posted By: SLee(IA)
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2025 at 2:49pm
Geneser until they closed then Mitchell's until he passed.Dad bought a WD45 and a D17 from a dealer in Alleman in the 50's but I have no memory of it or the name.
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Posted By: AC7060IL
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2025 at 10:56am
Hi Creston. Good question.
Answer can be summed up in one word, HEAT.
1960-1980 gleaners used a “constant flow / constant pressure” hydraulic pump system that produced constant HEAT.
These earlier Gleaners may or may not have been ordered with the optional oil cooler. Oil cooler option began about the era of hydrostatic drives? Maybe because the ATF would get 2x plus the action in a hydro system(1x pump, 1x motor). AND then add ORFICE flow restrictions to hydro oil that made more heat.
Anyway, the thinner ATF could tolerant heat better than most older “same era” economical thicker hydraulic fluids? When operating any older gleaner’s hydraulic system components, (with exception to steering), header lift, reel lift, variable speeds, power fold unloading auger, max engine rpms are needed because of the thinner ATF.
Think vehicle automatic transmission dynamics(torque converter, clutch discs, valves, etc). Automatic transmissions use the same oil (ATF) for 30,000-50,000 miles with a less than basic oil filter design(made from stainless steel wool). Kinda similar to an oil bath air cleaner filtration screens? Some vehicle ATF go for 100,000+ miles without changing? Whole nother topic…
In short, Gleaner OCI (oil change intervals) for ATF should be more often?
Todays newer hydraulic fluids are most likely better suited for the heat?
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