Have a DewEze Bale Mobale (aka, hay monster) that starts and runs fine. Unless you manage to kill it when hot. Then it won't start. An other wise fully charged battery can barely turn it over. But give it a couple hours to cool down and she turns over and starts right u.

Engine is a 318 Chrysler........with carter 2 barrel carb.......from early 70's. Hay monster built on Dodge D600 truck chassis. Aside from the hydraulics, more or less a stock truck.

Any ideas on why it won't start? Carb vapor locked maybe?

Now that I think of it, there may be another cause/fix. The fuel line from the fuel pump is now exposed. Somebody had wrapped it with a glass mat insulation and black tape, but that is now gone. I have some insulation tube that I forgot to install. That may help. It also may not help that the radiator and fan are mounted up high and remote. No cooling fan on the motor block itself, so no help for the fuel line.

Ground could also do it, but this one has black battery cable running directly from battery to the chassis frame.

Previous owner told me he was also looking for a coil, so that may help too.

Can't ever recall any farm truck.....once it was running and warmed up......not starting.

Since last year, new points, plugs, condenser and distributor cap. Was advised to get new air filter. I said was probably fine, but did so anyway. Hard to find industrial canister type. Pulled out old filter and found a birds nest and feathers helping filter. Running on a new filter now.

New gas tank (aluminum fuel cell sold to race car guys), new starter, new battery, new gauges, including tach with hour meter. Those are hard to find. 

Did look at battery cables and they are smaller gauge than I remember. Can put on larger ones.

Is it possible something in the engine is  expanding enough when hot to be that much of a problem turning it over? Engine has enough power to spin it but battery and starter don't?

Fresh 10-30 oil.......looks clean and slick.

Ed (Ont) wrote: You have thrown a lot of parts at it and none of those will cure the problem you said you had which seems to be not turning over well hot. Check your timing to see that it is correct. Too much advance could cause that same problem. Put a starter on it. Or get yours rebuilt - that may be the better option give the poor parts quality these days.

Agreed.......except most of those parts were intended to bring it back from the dead. A classic case of "it was running when parked". Had sat in the weeds for 3 or 4 years. Little to none of it to address current problem of not starting when hot. For now, that is just an annoyance. I'm careful not to kill it till the day is done.

But we are now using it. Picking up about 400 bales with it tomorrow. Back in the day, I"m told a good crew would not show up for a job less than 1,000 bales. I don't have that kind of crew.

Agreed, wouldn't surprise me at all if the new starter is failing when hot.

If certain the load is coming off of the engine when not operating, install either in series a shunt fed, or inductive clamp on ammeter and measure starting current. If you see over 800A inrush on starting current, start moving downstream first removing the starter motor and bench testing. Chrysler gear reduction starters should show about 90A inrush when bench testing with no load as example. within about two seconds taper to 30A or less. 

I would agree with electrical connection integrity. I like a minimum of 2AWG from the negative battery post to both the engine block, and frame rail in a gasoline engine application. 2/0AWG in diesel applications. Land that negative lead under a starter mounting fastener is preferred and use dielectric paste to keep corrosion at bay.  

  

Lars(wi) wrote: When you say ‘kill it’ are referring to stalling the engine, or turning the ignition off?

Both of those. Biggest risk is when nudging front end into a barn with full load of 150 bales. That is nearly 4 tons of hay. Helps that transmission is geared way down, but can still be kind of exciting getting it where it needs to be without hitting anything.

Another time was when we had to shut it down to add fuel. Only made that mistake once.

Still odd that when I go out later today, she will fire right up on first turn. But if hot.......at moment of kill, can barely turn engine over with fully charged battery. Half an hour later, will turn over, but drags as if battery is on last legs. But no fire or hint of wanting to start. But once cool, fires right up.

Hydraulics is powered by a single small pump mounted on frame in front of engine. A pto shaft runs from front pulley off crankshaft to the pump. If engine is turning, pump is pumping. Hydraulics running off the pump include a remote fan behind the radiator (runs on hydraulic motor), power steering, lift cylinders for the front snout and when loading or unloading, a hydraulic motor runs drag chains on front snout and conveyor down centerline of the bed.

To give an idea of it's purpose, couple days back driver and two stackers on the the truck picked up 150 bales from the field in 20 minutes. At barn, front snout raises up as much as 12 feet to become hay elevator. Can unload as fast as stacker guys in the barn can keep up. Or would if the driver (me) didn't screw up and kill it. 

I'll mention one more thing.......when we swapped out distributor cap, checked that against a firing order diagram for 318 Chrysler and concluded the distributor shaft had been put in backwards. But they they put spark plug wires on to match the order and it starts and runs. 

So one thing we have not done is to check the timing. With things reversed, not sure how that would work unless #1 is #1 either way.

Have considered pulling the distributor shaft to set it right, BUT, as mounted not sure if there is enough clearance between motor and deck above it to pull it. Because it is running, decided to go with it as it. Lots of little improvements and fixes needed once hay season is over.

The first thing I check (because it is easy) is voltage drop at the battery while cranking. If the voltage barely drops but the engine barely cranks, then there is poor connectivity (corroded connections, cables too small, whatever).

If the voltage drops WAY down then either the battery has no guts or there is excessive load (dragging starter, tight engine, whatever).

 

Good luck In this situation it may be blind luck that get you there first.

This is the actual contraption in question...........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onIsfsSXRXc" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onIsfsSXRXc

This is a cleaner version.......closer to original. This one a Ford engine. Second half shows front chute/snout with elevator extension for reaching barn lofts, etc. I have the extension, but it's not working.....yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tah60EnFRWs" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tah60EnFRWs

A couple items high on agenda to fix........one is that alternator. Somebody did some creative redneck engineering.......welded a tightener bracket to the FRAME, so belt tightens and loosens as engine moves. Have the actual Mopar/Dodge alternator brackets for the engine, but need to get a different alternator. This one is a Delco, with internal voltage regulator, but mounting holes don't fit. 

A real Dodge has a voltage regular setup under the dashboard and behind the firewall. The hay monster doesn't have that.

Creative parts solution for some of this comes from Summit Racing......which have several self regulated alternator options for this engine. All high output, but if the lights are on, there is a big voltage drop........which may also be an indication the battery is weak......but existing alternator may only be 30 or 40 amp.

Lars(wi) wrote: Watched your video, what is the advantage of this contraption, instead of pulling a flat rack directly behind the baler?

One advantage is I started baling today at 2 PM. It was 95 and humid. Plus had no help then. Help showed up at 6 PM when it cooled down. We put 200 bales in the barn in 2 hours, start to finish. Could have been faster if we made it in one big load. This shows front end elevated enough to stack bales 8 high, which is all we need. Could go higher.

Before finding this thing, spent some time looking for a New Holland Stackliner.......but even the smallest one needs more height to the trusses than this barn has. The other ways to haul hay all seem to be regional. I doubt there is a baler with bale thrower anywhere in MO. Some guys do stack on wagons behind the baler, but very rare. I've seen accumulators and skid loaders, but never seen one in the field.

Most common method in MO today for small squares? Crew of 4 or 5 picking them up by hand and stacking on a flatbed trailer towed by 1 ton pickup. The Amish can make it look like hay levitates onto that trailer and into the barn.

On a hunch, put a battery charger on the battery today at 1.00. Pulled it about 5.30. It needed some charge. Started and ran, but at start, volt meter dropped way off. So tired battery, bad cables, bad connection, or all the above.

Also, watching volt meter, alternator never kicked in as it has in past. May spend some time looking for reason, but gave up on that one long time ago. Just need to get a new one and start over.

There was quite a bit of redneck engineering that had been added that is being put back to normal / original.

Quick update. Pulled the battery and had it tested and they said still good. Was low on charge, but voltage output tested OK.

Battery cables were #4 and negative was grounded to the engine block. Cables corroded, so have upgraded to new #2 cables. Will install those on the existing battery. If memory serves, 725 cold cranking amps. They sell one with more CCA's that sits in same foot print. As is, the battery box is full. BTW, forgot but there is a 2nd battery box. So may have been setup to run a 2nd battery in parallel for running lights at night.

Existing alternator......one in the video......despite being large in physical size is only putting out 30 amps or so. Since it has been causing trouble anyway, new 90 amp single wire (self regulated) alternator on order. Local NAPA can make me new charging wire.........thinking #6 AWG wire to handle the loads.

Will make those changes, then see what happens.

A local electrical shop rebuilt the starter, and I had no more problems.

Bad starter could be part of problem, but in this case, not from the exhaust. Open air mounting and this one has a pair of cherry bomb glass packs on duel exhaust pipes. Somebody had a sense of humor. 

I added turnouts so the hot exhaust didn't hit rear tires directly.

Quick update. Got the #2 battery cables installed, then put battery charger on and left it overnight. Battery needed it. Got a chance to get it all back to normal and hit starter. Volt meter went from 12 volts to 10 (had been dropping below 6 volts), engine turned over way faster than had been before and once she started, volt meter quickly climbed up to over 14.......so alternator was trying to charge. New alternator has arrived, currently waiting on mounting brackets to install it.

Also, as mentioned before, part of fuel line was lacking insulation, so that has been replaced. For first time I also noticed that the 2 or 3 inch area where the insulation was missing passed within about 2 inches or so of exhaust manifold, which is likely why it was cooked off. New high temp insulation on it now.

Old alternator is unable to keep up with any type of load, so belief is under normal operation was getting a slow battery drain. With any lights on, drain was killing the battery.  Hoping new alternator fixes that. Will see.

As noted, this is a 318 Chrysler engine, but has none of the normal charging system.....external voltage regulator, etc........and somebody in the past rigged up an AC Delco GM style alternator with internal regulator. Rigged is an understatement. They found a way to mount wrong fit alternator to engine......big stack of washers used to get belts to align......then made a tensioning bracket......and welded it to the frame.......so belt tension varies if engine and frame do not move together.

Had this GM alternator tested to see if it was working and it was only putting out something like 30 amps. Have seen the original stickers for some Dodge D600 farm trucks from early 70's era.....same engine....and even those had 43 amp alternators.

If you don't get all the day's hay picked up before dark, and turn on the lights, the drain on battery goes way up.

Doing some research on this, they also say it is very hard on the alternator if battery ever gets really low and engine is then jump started such that alternator then has to charge a nearly dead battery. That has happened with this.

Another reason for getting the bigger 90 amp alternator installed. Hopefully it will keep up with the load and keep battery topped up all the time. Once topped up, extra capacity of bigger alternator won't matter. It only charges as needed. Seems like only way to go.

Quick update......with new replacement alternator, pulled the old one and was ready to install new........instantly ran into trouble. The lower, main support OEM alternator bracket is held in place by either two or three bolts......depending on the age and style of water pump......but that braket and the bracket to tension it is held one by only one bolt. One of 7 that holds the water pump in place. The key one.......the one that has to be used.......was found to have been snapped off inside the water pump housing. That bolt passes thru bracket, bracket, water pump, timing chain cover, then screws into the block.....and the end of it is open to coolant. So to install, a good thread sealant has to be used. No telling now many youtube videos there are documenting removal of that snapped off bolt. Now my turn to figure it out. Has been soaking in penetrating oil for days. Trying hard not to snap it off again as that would require removal of timing chain cover.  Exciting times.

Next question.........I now have 3 or 4 of these long bolts out, and hopefully 4th and final is coming out with no drama. I normally would plan to chase the threads in engine block with an oiled tap before putting bolts back. Problem being my 3/8" tap appears to be damaged (won't go into a matching nut without binding) and not long enough to reach thru the timing chain cover to get to the threads in the block anyway. 

Do they make a longer than standard tap with 4 inch or so shank? If so, what is now a good brand to buy? What I have now are Blue Point, which as I understand it was an economy line of tools sold by Snap On. I may be able to buy Irwin or Hanson locally. Anything else to consider? 

As she sits now.........that big 4 belt pulley is in place of a harmonic balancer. Have no clue how that is being held in place.......and no desire to find out. But if that bolt gets snapped, I get to find out. 

https://www.mcmaster.com/products/extended-taps/long-reach-chip-clearing-taps~~/" rel="nofollow - https://www.mcmaster.com/products/extended-taps/long-reach-chip-clearing-taps~~/

Not much progress on the bolt, except new plan to attack it. Have now added an induction heater to stable to tools. Have had more than one guy who turns wrenches for a living tell me that is what they use to free stuck bolts. For lack of a better way to explain it, seems to work like a microwave oven or some such........a coil is placed over end of the bolt and when you hit the on switch, energy waves are directed towards center of the coil (like a loose coil spring), with bolt positioned in the center. Some show it heating to read hot in a matter of seconds. No open flame as a torch or welder. Anyway, going to heat it up, let it cool and bang on it. Do that a couple times and hopefully bolt gives it up. 

Interesting that I've now watched dozens of youtube videos of guys working on front end of these old 318 motors and that very same bolt is problem for 99% of them. Generally it gets broken (as mine was), then drama follows as guys figure out ways to get it out. 

It may be a major design flaw. In normal use, carbon steel bolt passes thru steel alternator mounting bracket 1, then steel alternator mounting bracket 2, then aluminum water pump housing, then aluminum timing chain cover, then into thread in cast iron block (held in place by some nasty sealant), where tip of bolt is then exposed to some form of coolant cocktail. If for some reason, stray current finds it's way from alternator frame or electrical system you could have no telling what in terms of corrosion from dissimilar metals and all the rest. Bolt just gets chemically welded into place. Don't know if there is a non-metalic bolt tough enough for that duty, but would be worth looking into.

And while we are at it, here is another issue. Has power steering, turns left OK, but does not turn same to the right. Turn radius to the right might be 150 feet or so. At a T intersection, always concerned it will end up in the opposite road ditch or field on other side before it will turn down the road. 

Looking for problems, I now see the steering cylinder has a hard stop on the shaft. Why would that be there? Either mismatched cylinder pulled from another use or maybe if it retracts too far it hits something? Once she is running again, will have to look to see if that is a problem. As is, using less than half the throw of the piston when trying to retract to turn right. 

No progress at all on the broken stud. Have concluded it all needs to come off. Started with PTO shaft this morning and front end popped right off. Rear end......the part in front of pulley.......is stuck tight. If it is same as front, and it looks to be......is keyed onto the shaft and held there by set screw. But is locked tight from fit, corrosion or all the above. Can't pry it off and won't even slide back on further if you whack it with a hammer. 

Last  U-joint like this I wrestled with was off a hay rake and we managed to pull the shaft out of the rake, take it to a bench, heat it with a torch and eventually drive it off with a hammer. Considering all the grease, oil on engine and that rig is parked in a pole barn full of equipment and loose hay, not wanting to get a fire going on front of engine . So torch option last resort. 

If the U-joint could be taken apart, might be able to get wheel puller on it (and on the belt pulley), but see no way to get the cross out of that joint to take it apart. All 4 cap ends for the cross appear solid. Really hoping to not destroy the U-joint. 

Any ideas?  (currently being doused with penetrating oil pending better ideas).

some type of slide hammer attached to the shaft between the two u joints... and then slam with the hammer to shock the shaft out ?

It may be possible to run flat bar stock thru the U-joint yoke, then use a bolt / bar stock / flat washer / nut.......one on each side......to gently push it off. Worth a try. You would be pushing on the yoke's cross, so may damage that to the point it has to be replaced, but so be it. 

What holds pulley on is unknown. Behind the U-joint are for 3/8" bolts going aft towards the engine, so I assume there is a flange of some type behind / under it holding it in place. Like  fan belt pulley? Then expect that to also be held on by the usual big bolt they use to hold the harmonic balancer in place. Remove the bolt, pull the flange and maybe that would do it?  

Had hoped to avoid removing timing chain cover, but may be best after all. From dates, it is mismatched to the block anyway and appears to be showing some corrosion. Also need to get it off to chase threads on the block so that can run bolts back in good condition threads. Also won't hurt to get a peek at unknown condition of timing chain and gear. Clean out all the gang green and build back better? 

Not happy to be doing all that, but willing to if it makes things better. Just pain in the hinny when it wants to fight with you every step of the way. 

agree on the internal clips

plummerscarin wrote: Pretty greasy there but think if you clean it some you would find circlips inside the yoke to be removed then push the caps out.

Cleaned it up and you look to be right. These are what I suspect are the clips or snap rings. 

And this is where the unskilled mechanic hits the wall. If there is an opening on any of these so you can pry them off, I've not found it. Opening may be facing aft out of sight and just can't see them, but also had no luck rotating the clip to get it to show it's pretty face. 

I have worked with the external clips and if this was off the shaft an on a bench, could probably defeat this one too. But until then........

Once these are off, have concluded will be good idea to replace both crosses anyway. Aside from engine propelling machine around the field and up and down the road, all the rest of the functions run off the small hydraulic pump this shaft powers. Machine is helpless without it. And it would only break down with hay in the field. Not a good time to be fixing anything. Cheap insurance while it's apart anyway. 

Another view. Can see the bolt heads holding pulley on. This shaft comes off, may be home free. 

Progress!!!

Went on a blood hunt and managed to find the ends of the clips......as suspected, both facing aft and hidden. But eventually got on the ends and they pooped off. One into the ether.......I heard it ping off metallic stuff 2 or 3 times, but it is gone. 

About an hour later, had the cross out, and as suspected, the yolk was just keyed onto the shaft. Used a wheel puller and it didn't give it up easy. Was close to point breaking....tapped it a few times with hammer......tighten....tap......then came the big bang when it broke free. 

This is where she sits now. Ran out of time and battery powered trouble light went dead at same time. But now off and running.  Once those 4 cap screws are off, will know what's left to get this pulled apart. 

More progress.

After going over the pulley setup numerous times, concluded there HAD to be a seam somewhere, if only I could find it. No way to assemble it otherwise. Turns out the cap screws were only holding a plate on in front......not the entire pulley. Seam was on insider corner. 

As it turns out, didn't need to do anything to pto shaft / yolk / u-joint. Just remove those 4 cap screws. Now I know. Now we all know. Next one will be easy.

Got the big cap screw holding pulley on off and now appears to be same boat as normal case of having to pull the harmonic balancer.......except this pulley setup isn't normal. Have borrowed the loan of a balancer pulling tool, but short bolts normally used doesn't work with this pulley setup. Need to procure some much longer bolts in range of 3/8" x 3 1/2" fine thread......just to be able to reach the holes to pull it off with. Apparently neat trick is to delete the big washer, then put big cap screw back in and use that to push against. Whole unit is supposed to slide past it.  Will see. 

Not sure if time will permit any further progress will be made over the weekend.  

Found this video of a guy facing similar problem. Same bolt. This is what I fear may be causing the stuck bolt problem. Corrosion. 

Fast forward to around 5 min to get started. NO amount of prying was getting his cover free from that bolt.  Seems like a design flaw. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U57uM8X8Ybs" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U57uM8X8Ybs