I have a D19 diesel in my shop.  It came in for a leaking head gasket.  I am aware of the reliability issues with this engine.  I have discussed these issues with my customer prior to tear down.

The head gasket is trashed.  I can see nine cracks in the head without even cleaning it up.  Sleeve protrusion is less than the .002" that everyone says is needed to keep head gaskets in these.  I have checked Jensales (Reliance), Don's Diesel, and am waiting for a call back from Pfouts.  Any leads on parts or other information relative to getting this thing back together is appreciated.

Also appreciated would be any information regarding determining whether or not this head is salvageable would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.  Most of the cracks are in the energy cell area.  #1 and #6 are cracked between the valve areas.  Coolant was leaking from the front and rear of the head.  #6 has clearly been burning coolant, but I have no way of knowing whether it was currently burning coolant or whether this happened in the past.

Questioning the customer, he did not seem to think it was building excessive pressure in the radiator, but who knows.

The sleeves are essentially flush, definitely not the minimum .002 standout reportedly necessary to have a chance of keeping gaskets in it. 

Time to have another serious conversation with the customer.

Does anyone know what is the best current advice in head gaskets for these?  The cheap aftermarket gasket set everyone sells scares me just a little.

You can buy a whole lot of gas for the $7 - $10 K this is going to cost to do it correctly.  I'm not sure how many 262G engines are out there.  I'm seeing one in Missouri, don't know the first thing about it.  There is no sense repowering with a piece of junk that needs repairs.

From most of what I've read, the D19 gas wasn't a bad tractor.

   You will definitely need fire rings, I run copper head gasket on my puller, not impressed.

   Sealtech can make you any size fire rings.

Thanks folks.  Pfouts explicitly stated that the head gasket in his kits is of "not the best quality."  He suggested his alternative copper gasket as an upgrade.  I'm just not comfortable with it, especially since he states it has no fire ring.  Maybe we aren't communicating well, I don't know.

Every photo of a head gasket set for this tractor looks the same.  I suspect they all ARE the same, regardless of brand name.  None appear to have separate fire rings.  All are probably the same as the one that Pfouts says is "not the best."  I have zero confidence in any of them, given the reputation of this engine.

The search is on for an OEM Allis / Agco head gasket.  Current AGCO part number seems to be 74514398.  Underlying manufacturer's part number appears to be 5330-00-947-4693, not 100% confident of that number.  Failing that, I'm not sure about the cost-effectiveness of having a gasket custom made.

I'm not sure how I get myself into this stuff.  It seems as if everything obsolete, rare, parts NLA, junk from the factory, etc makes its way to my shop.

I think this was the customer's grandfather's tractor, so that factors in here.  I've told him either drag it out as is, slap it back together with no warranty whatsoever, or spend the big dollars to fix this old relic correctly.  Cylinder head is in the machine shop for evaluation, and I'm not yet sure where the cards will fall on this one.

Question, will a 226 from a D17 bolt in?  I'm not saying it's a good idea, just exploring all the possible options.

Wow!  Yes, I have read all about those fire rings on this forum, also figured out that Mack is no longer with us.  He struck me as a powerhouse of Allis knowledge.

It sounds as if those fire rings are just the thing for getting these to hang together.  Are you interested in parting with them?  They worked with the OEM gaskets, did they not?  Do you know if they worked with any of the aftermarket gaskets?  Please advise.

1-630-692-0633

  Sealtechs fire rings can be bought in any thickness,  I think 40 thou thicker then the gasket was enough crush??   The owner will tell you.

  

That was 12 years ago.

Dan 

   Yes, I use them on a 426, I pull the stock clamped ones off and lay the round ones in.

That's what I did on my WD$% 

FWIW,

 we used to apply Permatex Hi-Tack spray to both sides of the head gasket on many autos.

My brother & I worked on an Oliver 1600 Diesel (IIRC the model #) that had a coolant leak into the oil pan. 

When I got new gaskets, I asked the guy for the Permatex stuff; he gave me that knowing look as if to say; “ thats the only thing that'll keep those Olivers from blowing gaskets”

And it did.

Things are getting ugly here and any input would be appreciated.  Pushing it outside and hoping lightning hits it is starting to sound pretty good . . . .

The good:  I have an OEM head gasket coming and some of Mack's fire rings in hand to measure / use for a pattern.  The ARP stud set is in hand.

The bad:  I called the machine shop after two weeks and got a line something like this:  We pressure tested it at 150F and it isn't leaking.  We surfaced it because it was really bad.  So "I guess it's done."  I asked how the valves looked, and got a vague, "They look OK."

I went to pick it up, they couldn't find it at first, and asked "did someone call you to say it was done?"  It was blatantly obvious the valves had never been out of it:  I made them pull the one out on the spot to replace a missing keeper.  I did not like what I saw.

I took it to another shop to have it evaluated.  He vac-tested the valves, 3 or 4 leaking.  He did not like the proximity of some of the cracks to the valve seats (cracked between the seats of #1 and #6).  He kept the head for further cleaning, teardown, and evaluation.

He called me this AM and said this is a D17 head (I suspected that) and that the valve protrusion is all wrong (intakes should be sticking up above the head surface according to him, I have not been able to verify that).  He cleaned it and said that there are two cracks visually extending into the water jacket in the intake valve areas.  "If they are not leaking now, it will just be a matter of time" was his assessment.  He declines to perform further repairs, and I don't blame him.

So.  It is a toss-up at this point between finding a different head or finding a shop capable of repairing this one properly.

I'm still trying to figure out what we have here, also.  My head casting number is 4514282, which does not come up on the AGCO parts site at all, but shows to be a D17 Diesel head when I Google it.

My block casting number is 4514962.  The "2" at the end is really weird.  It looks as if the casting number was originally 4514964, and the "4" was ground off and replaced with a stamped "2."  The block is painted orange with badly peeling GRAY paint over the top.  The serial number that is supposed to be present on the left upper side of the block is either absent or sanded off.  "7503," which could be a serial number, is stamped on the rear upper surface of the block.  There is a mechanical fuel pump block-off plate on the side, but maybe they all had that.  There is what might be a date code on the left rear of the block, 12  25  66, as near as I can make out.  Injection pump 4514017 comes back as a D19 pump.  Pistons are flat-topped, no valve recesses.  One is stamped "224-1476," which seems to be an old Clevite number; another is stamped "11G," and the rest are unmarked.  Bore and stroke confirm the engine is definitely a 262.

What do you knowledgeable ones make of this valve head protrusion spec?  My D19 book says "valve to surface of head . . . . minus .016  -  .043.  I'm guessing both of these numbers are negative, can't imagine a specification window of .059" with the valves being allowed to stand .043" above the head surface.  What I measured was around (-.035"). 

I can't find D17 D262 specifications.  Machinist is coming up with a specification for exhaust valve height as well, which doesn't appear in any of my manuals.  I'm just asking, since at some point, some machinist, somewhere, is going to have to set these valve heights, and I am probably going to need to tell him what I want them set at.

If I need to find a different head, what casting number(s) am I looking for?

Sorry for the long, long post.  I really liKe this forum, lots of helpful people and just in general a friendly community.

SAMPSON REPAIR

You can look at the "Technical Specs" page on our website. Click on the D17 Diesel tractor and you will see the engine specs. 

https://awtractor.com/technical-specifications/" rel="nofollow - https://awtractor.com/technical-specifications/

These valves are definitely recessed.  To me it would stand to reason that protruding valves would require the valve relief in the pistons, but who knows.  It started easily enough, surprisingly, even at cold temperatures with no block heater, so at this point I'm thinking that if we repair the head, we will have it machined to D19 specifications.

And if we don't, it will most likely leave in pieces.  I tried to warn him ahead of time that if we pulled the head, things could get ugly.  And they have.  Things have gotten really, really ugly.

Update. 

The owner wants to fix everything, and fix it right.  The past three weeks have involved teardown, evaluation, cleaning, and parts sourcing.  The bottom end looks wonderful, standard bearings, crank only required polishing, no grinding.  My machinist's comment when I showed him the pistons was, "These are USED pistons??"

Now the really ugly.  Diesel cast just called me and said the head on this is unrepairable.  They said they have no success repairing cracks in the energy cell area.  I asked about just leaving those cracks alone, since everyone says they are non-critical, and he said that is not an option because they will get worse when they heat it to repair it.

It seems strange that whoever I talked to when I initially called acted extremely knowledgeable about these heads and sounded as if $2400 would net me a head as good as new.

So now I am looking for a serviceable head.  Any and all leads would be appreciated.

Northeast Tractor Parts 

http://northeasttractorparts.com/" rel="nofollow - http://northeasttractorparts.com/

Lyons NE

800 747 2071

The gas version of that same 262 engine would definitely have the power. It will drink gas but would be the easiest swap. I'm not sure what all (air cleaner etc.) you would have to hunt down to swap over from diesel to gas but I know it has been done.

  Did not some Cockshut tractors come with the same engine??? 

you still need to address the sleeve sinking issue. The flange is TINY!!! and no room between cyls to expand

  Kinda a crazy thought...  any way to make the gas head a direct injection replacement??

I have approval to pursue the G262 option.  I wish we had done this on Day One.  I'm not 100% sure how this will go, but we are currently leaning that direction.

I haven't gone to look at it yet, but there is a "running when pulled" PROPANE 262 out of a D19 in a salvage yard less than an hour from me.  I'm aware of another gas D19 fresh salvage job (stuck engine) in the state as well from which necessary parts may be obtainable to convert this back to gas.

Assuming a decent leakdown test, what are everyone's thoughts on leaving the higher compression LP pistons in this engine?  Of course, if the pistons are junk, we look for gas pistons.

Rebuilt injectors, "working when pulled" turbo and injection pump, and other engine parts MAY be available for sale once this is completed.  Nothing will be sold until the job is DONE.  PM me if interested.

I have no way of knowing.

https://www.tractorpartsasap.com/used-running-propane-engine-en-6984.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.tractorpartsasap.com/used-running-propane-engine-en-6984.html

The water plumbing to the propane vaporizer unit sure looks cobbled up, but that kind of mess is super common on old tractors anyway.  I guess I'll probably call them on it, and if they have no other gassers available I may go and take a look at it in the next day or two.

I've repaired several cylinder heads and blocks over the years with very good success. It has to be done hot before you ever strike an arc and filler selection must be correct along with a lot of weld zone preparation. This is why so damned expensive.

I've never seen one of these heads in the thread off the engine as I'm not from a farming background, but do know through conversation they were troublesome. Dragged a very nice one from a shed last year sold new by the dealership I help out, and it went to somebody in Texas very quickly. It was traded in on a new tractor and supposedly still ran, but I winched it onto a trailer. 

I guess I'll store the information away regarding the custom sleeve & piston suppliers.  It's all interesting, but these kinds of jobs became a real albatross when one is trying to run a business.  Even when 'money is no object,' money is always an object!

I'm sure the diesel can be successfully repaired to be reliable. I think custom sleeves shrink / press fit to the top of the block bore, with super careful machine work and measuring to keep the sleeve protrusion correct, custom fire rings, an old Victor head gasket or perhaps copper with O-rings for all the coolant passages, ARP studs, and a good serviceable head could make it stay together.  $20,000 out the door??  I don't want to admit what I've already quoted the customer, and honestly, at the end of the day, the job will never pay.  It is what it is, and I live and learn, I guess.

I may never know the truth on the current head.  The first shop said they pressure tested it at 150 degrees and ?? PSI air pressure, no leaks.  They told me the valves looked "OK," but I dug deeper when I found out they had never disassembled the head.  The valves were worn, some pitted, and some leaking.  Second shop said it was visually cracked into the water jacket around one or two of the intake ports and he wouldn't work on it.  Called Diesel-cast, spoke to a guy who seemed very knowledgeable about the D262 heads, acted like they were a common repair item.  "We can fix it, around $2400."  Sent it out, they called me and said the cracks around the energy cells are fatal and they can't fix them.  I asked about just leaving those cracks alone, and he said they HAVE to fix them, because they will get huge when they heat it up to weld it.  Bear in mind that these cracks are already huge--probably .010" wide.  I'm just done with it.  Maybe it's good.  Maybe it's junk.  But it's time to move on.

I want to save these old tractors as much as the rest of you do.  For the most part (D19's and a few others excepted!) the tractors (across brands) from this era (mid '50's to mid '60's) were very capable, very well built, and very repairable.  They will do everything that the modern compact junk will do, and do it better--just not with as much class and style.  When you fix them to use them, I honestly think $10,000 - $15,000 isn't unreasonable at all.  Unfortunately, some just aren't worth saving.

I currently have leads on three sources of G262's in various states, from running to core.  Something will come together on this tractor.  I'll keep this thread alive until it goes home.  I hate it when a thread just ends, with no word of how the job ever turned out.

Precisely.  If someone wants a trailer queen, then none of that matters.  I just feel a lot better now that we are moving away from the diesel all together.

Do you have any idea if my diesel flywheel can be used with a gas engine?  Crankshafts are the same, rear plates are the same, clutches are the same, front pulleys are the same.  Starter, ring gear, and flywheel are different part numbers.  I'm guessing the gas flywheel is perhaps lighter?  But I can't think of any harm in bolting up the diesel flywheel--unless there would be some weird external balance issue or something.  I wouldn't think so, given that the cranks are the same.

I have a lead on a running D262 out of a D19 I'm pursuing and another out of a C2 combine.  The engine out of the D19 definitely sounds like the less complex of the two options.  But the seller is keeping his flywheel and starter.

I have a running gas engine coming for this tractor out of a D19.  I'll probably see it today.  We are hoping it doesn't need much in the way of repairs. Even if it does, I still think it's the best option in this case.  Question:  I'm assuming the "Mack" custom fire rings have no relevance to this engine.  The original AGCO fire rings were different part numbers between gas and diesel.  What are guys using for head gaskets in the gas versions?

I'm hoping there is no reason to pull the head anyway.  Mainly, I would like to return the "Mack" rings to their owner and need to know if there is any reason not to do so at this point.

My idea would be custom sleeves, either with wider flanges at the top (but there isn't an over-abundance of 'meat' up there to work with, if you know what I mean), or else make the sleeves to be a shrink / press fit at the top.  At the end of the day, you would be "dry sleeved" at the top and "wet sleeved" at the bottom.  With too much of a press fit, I worry about cracking the block between the counterbores, I don't know.  As the Dr. says, you still have the weak head to worry about.

At the end of the day, the diesel is cool, but we decided to go with the much more reliable gas version for this particular project.  I'm sure with enough $$$, determination, and a good machinist, anything is possible.

I am measuring .206" between upper counterbores 1-2-3 and 4-5-6.  An extra .020 lip on the sleeve reduces that to .166".  I would have to wonder about cracking between counterbores.  Maybe it wouldn't be an issue.  Isn't there someone on this forum somewhere that has done this (wider flanges) without issue?

My opinion:  This block is too small and too light to pack a 262 turbo diesel into, period.  They should have left it alone as a bored block, or reworked it into a smaller wet-sleeved engine that had decent sleeve lips.  I look at this engine and I see a gasoline / propane block, not a diesel block.

I get it that there was a horsepower race going on.  It seems that more than one poor idea / overpowered tractor got rushed to market at this point in history, did they not?  It was most certainly not just an Allis issue.