External Hydraulics
Printed From: Unofficial Allis
Category: Allis Chalmers
Forum Name: Farm Equipment
Forum Description: everything about Allis-Chalmers farm equipment
URL: https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=204099
Printed Date: 21 Nov 2024 at 11:54pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: External Hydraulics
Posted By: Clayfoot
Subject: External Hydraulics
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 9:15am
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Revisiting this topic again for clarification. I'm planning on adding external hydraulics to my D14 and still want to be able to control the lift arms independently of anything else and still retain full traction booster function. Do I have to have a transport valve to accomplish this, or can I divert flow from the pump to a single acting external control valve (relief pressure set at pump pressure, so 3200 psi?) that then runs to the port on the rear end, and run my 4 spool monoblock from the power beyond port on that new hitch control valve? Returns will all tee into a single line that runs back to the return port on the hydraulic reservoir. Would the traction booster still operate normally like this? I'll be using modern, monoblock valves for this as they can be had cheaper than the factory AC external valve. Relief pressure on the hitch lift control valve would be set high and the other valves would be set down around 2000-2500 psi for external implements and modern cylinders. |
Replies:
Posted By: Rick of HopeIN
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 10:53am
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The non-Allis loaders often used a separate hydraulic system but kept the tractor system intact to run the rockshaft. This kept the rear implement totally separate from the boom and bucket functions so was what most people wanted. ------------- 1951 B, 1937 WC, 1957 D14, -- Thanks and God Bless |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 10:57am
| You cannot do what I think you want to do. You can mount an external hydraulic valve (or valves) to the left of the seat, so you can have 2,000 to 2,400 psi two-way hydraulics to operate two-way cylinders that are not high pressure (more than 3000 psi). To make this valve work, it needs a return line/hose going back to the sump, which there is a place directly down from the sediment bowl on the left side of the torque housing. Your "Transport valve" currently has a 90 degree elbow and steel line already attached there. So, you'd need a tee connection somewhere, or eliminate the Transport valve, or find a new return to sump location. So, I'll assume you get this done. Now, have a hose connected to the INLET of this external valve with an implement nipple on the end of it and plug it into the remote coupler on the Transport valve. Place the LIFT/LOWER lever clear UP and lock it in the top window. You now have external (auxillary is a better term) hydraulics !! BUT, your lift arms are clear up and you can't use them independently until you unplug that hose from the Transport valve coupler. You have TWO systems, you just can't use them simultaneously. The extra valve has to be plugged in...or not plugged in. Is this what you want ?? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 11:12am
| Maybe you should tell us what it is you are trying to do ?? A transport valve on a D-14 is kind of useless in my way of thinking. Do you have a plow with a hydraulic tail wheel?? I doubt it. or a disc that has lift links to the lift arms AND rubber tires on an axle ?? |
Posted By: Clayfoot
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 11:23am
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Let me try to explain this better (no loader involved). And let me start with, all external/auxillary valves will have their return ports plumbed into a single line that will run to the return plug ahead of the clutch pedal. I want to be able to operate a dump trailer, implements with 2 separate cylinders, and I have plans to build a few implements that utilize hydraulic motors. From the factory, pressure line from the pump runs under the left floorboard and up to the factory auxillary quick disconnect with no return line. The housing where the factory QD fitting is mounted is also the port to deliver and return fluid to the internal lift arm cylinder. If I removed this line, run it to an external control valve that is set at the same pressure relief, then back to that little housing with the factory QD connection, the external control valve will operate the hitch lift arms with hitch control quadrant locked in the LIFT position. Would this alone have any affect on the operation of the TB system? I'm doing this because modern external control valves have a power beyond feature that can be utilized to send fluid to another external valve without losing control or holding power over what that first valve is controlling. The last valve that I'll be plumbing through the power beyond port of the first valve will be a 4 spool monoblock to control 2 separate dual acting cylinders, 1 single acting cylinder and 1 spool to operate a hydraulic motor. Due to the limited 4 GPM that the internal hydraulic lift pump creates, multiple hydraulic circuits would not be able to be operated at the same time without everything being very slow, but it will not affect the holding power of each spool. So will having the pump running all the time and returning fluid to the tractor's hydraulic reservoir instead of back through the factory pressure line have any adverse affect on the traction booster? Maybe I need someone to be explain to me how the TB works from an engineering standpoint, like as far as what pushes on what and controls what. I know that it's a draft control and the basics of how it works, but what armature, etc actuates what to raise the lift arms? |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 11:29am
| What you desire to do should work, except for the Traction Booster part. So, without explaining why it won't work, why do you think you need it to work ?? A mounted plow or disc ?? |
Posted By: Clayfoot
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 12:06pm
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Plow, cultivator, disc, etc. How would I need to plumb it to be able to maintain TB operation, or switch to it when I need it? I wouldn't need to use any of the external/auxillary hydraulic connections or controls when I would need to use the TB. |
Posted By: Straanger
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 12:50pm
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It sounds like you are wanting a separate high volume low pressure system. Front mounted pump, side mounted reservoir, then all of the valves you need. All of the original hydraulics will work as designed. |
Posted By: Clayfoot
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 1:00pm
I'm not. |
Straanger wrote:Posted By: Clayfoot
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 1:05pm
I was hoping you'd chime in actually. In the past 3-4 years, I still haven't been able to determine exactly how the TB system operates. Pressure on the torsion rod, rod moves something internally, actuates hydraulic pump in correlation to the pressure applied? If I knew how the system operated, I could come up with a workable solution, even if that's a selectable diverter valve that would lockout any external control valve when using the snap coupler and TB, effectively returning all operation to the normal, factory configuration. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 3:21pm
| As far as how the TBoost system works, the part that affects what you want to do is this: the hydraulic pump sends oil thru the existing steel tube to the lift arm cylinder manifold to raise the lift arms slightly and then release them slightly. This means the hydraulic oil is going back and forth thru that steel tube whenever you are using the TBoost system. The system you want to design and use has the oil coming thru the steel tube and then returning via a second return line back to sump. It simply cannot work without a change to the hydraulic system design configuration. Let's say you have built yourself a 3-spool aux valve stack that receives its pressurized oil from the steel line that originally was connected to the manifold just left/rear of the seat suspension, when the LIFT/LOWER lever is locked UP. It also has a separate return line back to the sump. Two of the hyd stack spools are for remote cylinders. The third one connects to the manifold to the left rear of the seat. To operate the Traction Booster system you would position/lock/secure your aux valve spool lever to RAISE the lift arms. It must be LOCKED in this position. Leaving the LIFT/LOWER lever DOWN, raise the Traction Booster lever up to the proper setting to cause the TBoost system to begin to work. To raise and lower the implement at the end of the field, you now use the LIFT/LOWER lever. All this time the two spools for remote cylinder work cannot do anything. The LIFT/LOWER lever either " turns on" oil flow to the aux valve stack, or when the lift arm spool is locked in the raise position, the LIFT/LOWER lever only makes the lift arms go up and down. A-C made an optional aux valve stack that worked nearly identical to what you are attempting. |
Posted By: Clayfoot
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 3:30pm
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That's essentially what I'm trying to replicate, but I can build the system with of the shelf parts for about the same price a finding just the optional factory valve and still come out with more remotes. It sounds like if I plumb a inline disconnect (hydraulic on/off switch) that disconnects all of my external valves, I'll be able to use the TB just fine, forcing the hydraulic fluid to send/return along the factory high pressure line. I can live with that arrangement. Thank you for the rundown! If I had started to plumb everything tomorrow, I wouldn't have ended up with what I wanted without that inline shutoff valve. I'm still curious what the TB utilizes to sense feedback. I don't think I've seen an animated cutaway, but that would explain it right quick 
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Posted By: DiyDave
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 3:39pm
That big spring, on the bell of the SC is connected to a linkage to the pump...  https://youtu.be/ZJRphKoweAM?si=kaCe_BRNMkLWZb-Z" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/ZJRphKoweAM?si=kaCe_BRNMkLWZb-Z
------------- Source: Babylon Bee. Sponsored by BRAWNDO, its got what you need! |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 3:41pm
| Under the belly of the tractor is a often overlooked HUGE coil spring which the snap-coupler bell attaches to. The spring yields/senses the pulling or draft load and sends a signal to the hyd pump to lift or lower the lift arms when pulling an implement. |
Posted By: Clayfoot
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 3:52pm
| Is that coil spring shielded? I know about the attached e torsion rod that runs from the snap bell up to the hydraulic reservoir/pump. |
Posted By: DrAllis
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 3:58pm
| Open on the bottom and often packed with dirt. |
Posted By: HudCo
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 7:11pm
| when i did my wd i added a diverter valve but that still has to be switched back and forth from lift arms to remotes but mostly if my remotes are being used the lift arms probley arnt |
Posted By: dfwallis
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2024 at 9:44pm
I had planned to do something similar on a CA. I designed a double diverter valve to route both OEM pump outlets to a new console. When the new console was in use, the traction booster would not function, but you could restore the TB function just by switching the diverter valve back to the original configuration. I've decided not to do that due to mounting placement difficulties for the diverter valve followed by issues with the existing pump that I've not worked out yet. I think it would be too difficult to both operate the OEM system (with TB) and also operate my separate spool set, so I'll probably go back to using a separate gear pump. It's a lot smaller than the diverter and should be easier to position (and can be easily moved around to various power pickoff positions if I don't like the results). ------------- 1952 CA13092 |